“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

thank you. So the men ,who say they are women and who are more naturally aggressive and have a need to dominate because they are infact male/men are doing what they have always done .and the women who want to be men do not display the same alpha behaviours therefore trans men are not dictating what men should be?

thank you. So the men ,who say they are women and who are more naturally aggressive and have a need to dominate because they are infact male/men are doing what they have always done .and the women who want to be men do not display the same alpha behaviours therefore trans men are not dictating what men should be?

Precisely.

Isn't it great that you all have 'them' all figured out.

well, it seems as obvious as the rather large nose on my face.

"Isn't it great that you all have 'them' all figured out."

It would be great if you could contribute. People are really trying to understand...

Isn't it great that you all have 'them' all figured out.

Be our guest, please enlighten us. Any piece of research that relates to the original question would be great, thanks.

If this just affected the personal sphere then you're right. Nobody's business but the people directly involved. But the personal has become political- and we all need to understand wht's going on.

Because some women are fine with being erased and replaced with "not male" its expected we all should be on board with it.

Fuck right off.

Fuck right off.

I am trying to do all this without swearing but it really is the only response isn't it?

FUCK OFF AND LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE.

One wonders what the suffragettes would think of all of this. Those who gave up their lives for the rights of women, for women who were subjugated second class citizens, only to be told that the women they fought for weren't infact women at all.

Trans women are Trans women.

There is a difference biologically between males and females, yes?

Women (and I use that term to mean adult human female, not a set of behaviours or thoughts or feelings) have long been oppressed because of this difference. This is why you can't just say Trans women are women. Their experiences of life and their bodies are so very different to women's that lumping them together as the same group with the same issues and needs does both Trans and biological women a disservice.

I don't think it's bigoted to accept there is a physical difference and this affects the needs of each group. I don't think it's bigoted to say that 'biological woman' should be a protected characteristic as they are an oppressed group - this is exactly why anti sexism laws exist, because of the treatment of women historically and currently. In much the same way as anti racism laws exist because of the historical treatment of non white people and the ongoing effects it has today.

I'm fine with non females living their lives as a woman in the 'social construct' sense, if it is how they feel their personalities are better suited and it's the self expression that makes them feel themselves and happy then I have no problem with that. I agree that gender roles should have nothing to do with genitals - having a penis doesn't mean you should suppress a 'more feminine personality' if that's who you are, but the difference is I don't think someone should have to literally become a woman in every sense, thereby erasing the needs of biological women. Why can't males wear dresses and make up and be 'feminine' without it changing that they are males? (lots of women don't do those things, are they not women?) Why should those behaviours be female identifying and not just open for any person?

If someone really wants a surgical sex change and it makes them feel good about themselves I see no issue with that either, the same as if it was a boob job or nose job or getting loads of tattoos. Nothing wrong with body modification, as long as the person is a consenting adult that is fully informed.

Regardless, the difference between Trans and biological women still needs to be protected in the areas that it matters - women's crisis centres and women's sports, for example. If that means a third space or category needs to be created then so be it. Personally, I think we should be working instead to smash the social constructs that defines women and men in these limiting ways rather than propping them up, which I feel the Trans movement is doing in lots of ways.

Well I know what I think of the women who defend this illogical dogma.

We're clearly soldiers in petticoats
And dauntless crusaders for woman's votes
Though we adore men individually
We agree that as a group they're rather stupid!
Cast off the shackles of yesterday!
Shoulder to shoulder into the fray!
Our daughters' daughters will adore us
And they'll sign in grateful chorus
"Well done, Sister Suffragette!"
From Kensington to Billingsgate
One hears the restless cries!
From ev'ry corner of the land:
"Womankind, arise!"
Political equality and equal rights with men!
Take heart! For Missus Pankhurst has been clapped in irons again!
No more the meek and mild subservients we!
We're fighting for our rights, militantly!
Never you fear!
So, cast off the shackles of yesterday!
Shoulder to shoulder into the fray!
Our daughters' daughters will adore us
And they'll sign in grateful chorus
"Well done! Well done!
Well done Sister Suffragette!"

Sorry, am having trouble keeping up with the fast paced barrage of posters saying 'yes, I believe Ian Huntley is a woman'.

I know this is a rare "condition", for want of a better word, and is a tiny minority, but where do these people stand I wonder? DID (disassociative identity disorder, used to be multiple personality disorder). I know someone with this, recently diagnosed. The main alter ego is male and binds the boobs. Sadly, the host, due to genetic medical problems, is shortly to have a double mastectomy. My friend doesn't want to have reconstructed boobs. She worries about which toilets, changing rooms she should use. She (at any given time, because the alters are rarely controllable, is going to be a flat chested female with a manly voice and disposition) Where does she stand in all of this? It's been difficult enough, as it is.

That's a difficult one, but I would say she is a female who appears to have male attributes. Nevertheless less she is a female and should use female toilets.
At my kids' secondary school all girls now have to wear trousers on entry to the school to accommodate any trans gender pupils.
So all have to wear traditionally male clothes and they have to wear ties too.

See I have a real issue with the trans agenda being introduced in schools.

In theory it seems fine to let Paul call himself Paula and wear a skirt. Why not let him call himself a girl?

But what if we say that by calling himself a girl, Paul is now a girl?

Does that mean he runs in the girls races inbsorts day? Takes a place on the girls football team?

Does he get a place in the girls sex education lessons?

Does he get access to the girls changing rooms?

Can he take that science scholarship meant to encourage girls into STEM?

Thanks for that proper, but I somehow don't think it's going to be as easy as that. The main male alter is very strong and controlling (typical) and wants to use male toilets, which I fear is going to lead to physical abuse in the loo's, which is basically my friend getting beaten. Anyhow, apologies for going off topic. Your dd? I'm so confused with it all! Why do the girls have to wear trousers, why isn't the other way round and boys have to wear skirts, or is that a silly question?

My mistake Proper, you didn't mention a dd, but all girls in general. But again, why do the girls have to accommodate the boys, but not vice versa?

Bubbaleo It does sound like a horribly difficult situation and I really hope your friend is given the help she needs to get through life safely. I am in no way qualified to offer advice really.

At my dd's school I rather suspect the issue with the trousers is jumping on the trans bandwagon in order to stop the girls rolling up their skirts which the head finds 'indecent'
I have huge issue with this. But you would be amazed, or maybe not, at the number of people in our town who have phoned in to complain and it seems STILL have a problem with female anatomy on show.

I thought we had gone further than we have in body shaming, but apparently not.

My 14 year dd old can still wear skirts. She rolls them up, when told to roll them down she asks" what is wrong with my legs?".
The boys wearing very low cut trousers who deliberately show their underwear are left to get on with it.
Anyway, sorry to derail.

Sorry x post. Thanks for your replies Proper

Interesting to read this and a notable lack of evidence presented. I hear all about transwomen presenting themselves as women. But surely the point of the new agenda is that they don't need to? They can present themselves as very stereotypical masculine males yet declare they are a woman and expect to be accepted as such? There doesn't even seem to be any timescales attached. So they can be a woman for half an hour then be a man again?

I would love to hear someone defend Ian Huntley's right to be moved to a woman's prison.

I would love to hear someone defend Ian Huntley's right to be moved to a woman's prison.

I am sure one of the people accusing us of being transphobes or bigots will be along any second now...

But I bet someone will. Remember Lord Longford defending Myra Hindley's rights. Different issues I know, but there's always someone to defend.