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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

“Transwomen are women”

599 replies

BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 09:33

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

OP posts:
Original poster
BertrandRussell · 28/12/2017 09:24

So- has anyone got any links to academic studies on the trans issue?

I know someone mentioned some but refused to link. I’m still floundering.

OP posts:
QuentinSummers · 28/12/2017 09:33

southken
the queen will outdo the women in this sense, and in the process will confuse and seduce an audience, whose gaze is structured to a degree through this hegemony. Trans women and drag queens challenge the fantasy upon which the spectacle of the ideal female is predicated, which rests on the criteria for desirability under the male gaze, as femininity and sexuality are inextricably linked by the mediated spectacle of the female body

Do you have any idea how offensive this is to women?
Women are not a "spectacle", a man's idea of what a woman should be is not the actual "ideal female". Drag queens and trans women do not "outdo women" in any sense other than the sense of overinflated physical stereotypes.

A woman is not an idea in a man's head. Fuck off with that.

ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 09:33

I wonder if there will be a queue of trans women queuing to change back to men once they realise this and the discrimination really kicks in?

As a fair few seem to think they are 'lesbians'...that want to get into relationships with owners of actual vaginas, I expect the wife work will actually be renamed vagina-owner work. And still be done by women.

Nothing is ever going to change the fact that men know which pussy to grab. And women know who is more likely to grab them.

Maryz · 28/12/2017 09:49

ffs, I have noticeably "male" fingers, and allegedly a "male" brain.

The only "female" clothes I wear are bras. And leggings, because they are more comfortable over my middle-aged stomach than jeans.

I don't, and never have, performed "gender" - apart from when I was a child and insisted on boy's haircut and clothes.

I don't, however, have a penis

SomeDyke · 28/12/2017 09:51

There are the peer reviewed publications of Anne Lawrence, but they don't quite support the popular political female-brain narrative. For example (peer reviewed but non-journal HTML version hence accessible):

Bekksy · 28/12/2017 09:58

'Nothing is ever going to change the fact that men know which pussy to grab. And women know who is more likely to grab them'

Pretty much this.

You can try and force woman to accept that trans woman are woman and you can shout them down and say Nodebate all you like. But at the end of the day you will never convince men that trans woman are anything more than a 'bloke in a dress'. Heterosexual males are NOT going to be swooning over these 'new' woman. They may can you Shiela but they are not fooled.

And if they are fooled....
I believe there is probably a good chance that trans murders will increase.

I hope this madness ends soon.

Flomper · 28/12/2017 09:58

yes of course, they'll always be "special" women (even though theyre supposedly the same as women) so will never have to do any of the drudgework society associates with women, and wont be discriminated against and passed over at work, as no company would dare upset a transwoman. Plus there's less likely to be kids involved so that takes away a lot of the easy subjugation of women by men. No wonder they prefer being their version of women.

If only we knew what we know now when we were at university eh?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/12/2017 09:59

Do you have any idea how offensive this is to women?

I might be wrong but that might be a quote from Judith Butler rather than southken's own words. It has the tone of the sort of incomprehensible, pretentious bollocks Butler comes out with.

Ereshkigal · 28/12/2017 10:04

Yes I think southken was quoting JB.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 28/12/2017 10:10

That’s Judith Butler- but without context. Could you say more, southken?

OP posts:
QuentinSummers · 28/12/2017 10:21

I'm not reading Butler then, my blood pressure couldn't cope. Honestly. What a bunch of sprouty arse

LangCleg · 28/12/2017 10:36

Also worth noting that most women are treated better as students than for most of the rest of their lives

This is such a vital point. If this extreme TRA nonsense was simply confined to campus politics and a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears kids in a transient period of identity formation, I'd have no problem with it. God knows, I was enough of an idiot myself when I was at uni.

But the real, sexist, patriarchal world intrudes soon enough. Campus politics can't be allowed to set an agenda that compromises the rights of women in this patriarchal world, an normalises the grooming and medicalisation of kids.

ProperLavs · 28/12/2017 10:41

OK, are you seriously telling me there are men who want to be women and then be lesbians? Why?
That’s just a fucked up mental health issue .
Are there women being men who tell men how to be men as well? That’s a serious question, but I fear it may be over-looked as I am not prepared to do all the high brow language.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 28/12/2017 10:44

I do think that the fact that transmen do not appear to be telling men how to do masculinity is very telling. I am also prepared to bet that some male spaces are going to be carefully protected. Where is the outcry about primogeniture, for example?

OP posts:
ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 10:45

OK, are you seriously telling me there are men who want to be women and then be lesbians? Why?

Because being a straight man is not getting them attention?

Not only do they then say they are lesbians, they tell lesbians that some women have penises and then call lesbians who just want to be a lesbian that they are bigots for not wanting to suck ladydick. Their words not mine.

It is so fucked up it is hard to untangle. And the threat of being outed as bigots and reported as a bigot to their employers shuts up alot of people.

LangCleg · 28/12/2017 10:46

ProperLavs

There are men who want to be women and claim they are lesbians, yes. What is more, these men tell actual lesbians they are bigots for not wanting to... er.... date them. See: cotton ceiling -

fairplayforwomen.com/gender-critical-feminism/lesbians-erasure-feminism-6

CautionTape · 28/12/2017 10:47

It's interesting that trans men ( who have for the most part been socialised as girls) aren't particularly vociferous in the trans agenda.

But trans women ( who generally have been socialised as boys) are running the show.

Now why would that be I wonder...

ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 11:03

Anyone here believe that Ian Huntley is a woman?

JAPAB · 28/12/2017 11:03

CautionTape Now why would that be I wonder...

Two possible explanations. There are far fewer trans men than women, so even with all else equal, they might get less air time. Or those inferred male at birth are just more assertive (whether this is naturally within them, or thanks to socialisation). Maybe male homosexuals shouted that much louder for homosexual rights, maybe male black people did too. Not sure what the overall ooint is here though. Wen these minority groups do get more rights, it is the males within them who deserve a bit more credit?

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 28/12/2017 11:12

Grin Did somebody really just say that trans men are not more prominent in the discussion because they are not assertive enough?

I think my irony meter just exploded!

OP posts:
JAPAB · 28/12/2017 11:18

Wen these minority groups do get more rights, it is the males within them who deserve a bit more credit?

Or depending on your persepctive, the blame :)

FarFrom But basically it seems to boil down to whether biology (as we currently know it) is seen as the be all or end all or not.

Depends on the context. It will be in some practical situations. But in other context, such as say your gender, nationality, race, sexuality, religion, and a ton of other things, it won't be.

MrsKCastle · 28/12/2017 11:19

The only way 'transwomen are women' can possibly make sense is for a completely new definition of women that has no reference to biology. Everyone, including TRAs knows that transwomen are not biologically female.

Trans activists and trans people are deliberately trying to replace the biological definition with a meaningless circular definition that cannot be argued with because it's all in the mind. 'Transwomen are women'. Why? Because anyone who identifies as a woman is one. What is a woman? Anyone who identifies as one.

It is vital for feminists to be able to name and define 'people who are born with vulvas and seen as having the potential to conceive and bear children'. We need to be able to name this group because members of this group are consistently discriminated against. 'People who are born with penises and see as having the potential to inseminate a member of the other group' are consistently treated differently to the first group. Despite what TRAs would have us believe, almost everyone we meet falls very clearly into one of those groups. We have no difficulties in everyday life distinguishing between the groups.

My feeling is that TRAs should be coming up with new language to describe the group of people who feel me a woman inside. Womangender? Ladyfeel?

As it is, I have long ago come to the conclusion that the word 'woman' as it is now being used does not apply to me. I am NOT a ciswoman, I am NOT someone who identifies as a woman. I am female. But now, even the word 'female' is also being changed. If TRAs won't come up with new language, maybe feminists need to do so in order that we can continue to name and define the group of 'vulva-havers ' that I mentioned earlier.

JAPAB · 28/12/2017 11:25

BertrandRussell The original poster did not enquire as to why they were not as prominent, but as to why they were not as vociferous . Do you have a different explanation than the two offered?

somebody suggested two explanations. There are far fewer of then being one, the other being

JAPAB · 28/12/2017 11:26

...something naturally within them, and/or socialisation.