“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

ATeardropExplodes, do you have the courage to start a "AIBU to not believe Ian Huntley is a woman" thread?

No problem with that.

Actually Bert several posters went along with it. The OP conceded it was wrong. Perhaps you don't see it but denigrating anything feminine happens a lot on here. Generally posters will acknowledge it when it is pointed out but it is something a default position.

Bert, sorry for the derail. I'm none the wiser about the answer to your original question.

A few potentially OT thoughts (sorry!) inspired by recent posts..

I think the “girly” vs “interesting” debate actually raises some pertinent issues. I agree that the word “girly” was an unfortunate choice, but I do think it’s notable that generic gifts for women often seem to be about the body / making women beautiful (hand cream, bubble bath, body lotion) whereas I would put even generic presents into the “interesting” category if they inspire the mind or push the body physically (books, practical presents aimed at developing skills or supporting a hobby etc). In that sense I understood what the OP of that topic was saying.

I question a great deal how and why I “perform” as a woman in my daily life, and why I make the choice to wear skirts and make up, wear my hair long, take a different approach to what I see as aggressive and confrontational tendencies of people in my male dominated career. But one of the things I love about feminism - and my feminist reading over thirty years - is that it does encourage me to interrogate my choices and assumptions.

I know that there are many people who are transgender who question their feelings and choices, but I worry that many TRAs have very rigid, unquestioning stances. Compared to feminism, there is (as yet) very little literature or theory exploring different transgender viewpoints and theories. It is a fairly young movement in that sense, and I will be interested to see how it develops. Will we get brilliant transgender academics debating different theories or aims? Will we have transgender novelists writing something equivalent to The Handmaid’s Tale? Will there be a transgender-led debate about biology vs gender in the way that the feminist movement has debated competing theories about “womanhood”? Will more time lead to a more nuanced debate?

‘Transwomen are women’

No they aren’t. Simply because their chromosomes are XY. End of really.

They are transwomen yes, but actual women? No.

Just as an aside but many dresses are more comfortable to weat than msny trousers/shorts. Also cheaper generally and less faff having to match tops and bottoms.

Realise I’m totally missing the point of the thread -as you were folks!

Exactly, there has to be a distinction between biological Females, and those who have transitioned, trans woman still carry the XY chromosomes, despite changing their appearence to look like a woman, you cannot change nature. So therefore they are trans women.

I agree re dresses and skirts, I find them more comfortable generally.

purpleanorak
Sex reassignment surgery has been around since the seventies, I think. (Please anyone correct if wrong). Transsexuals were few and far between until recently, and generally low key, wanting to have full surgery, and be accepted as women. And they were.
Transgender is something else. It states that "woman" is a feeling. There is a move to self identify, i.e, no hormones, no surgery, you are female because you say you are and therefore get to use changing rooms in topshop next to young girls, even though you have a penis. All you have to do is put a dress on, say you are a woman and bingo, you have access to jobs etc that should by law be reserved for women under the equalities act. It's not a young movement, it's men's rights activists movement, and misogyny is as old as the hills.
There are many old school trans who are speaking up and writing about it.

FAtty, you have hit the nail on the head!

We had a family friend who had surgery in the late 60s. Jan Morris had it in 1963/4, I think.

Fatty you are mistaken, self id is even less complicated than that - you don't need to bother putting a dress on.

Whinberry

if transwomen are women does this mean also that all women are men so any woman in her usual attire of heels and slinky dress could rock up at a 'gentlemens club' and be admitted as long as she claims she self ids as a man of course

“if transwomen are women does this mean also that all women are men so any woman in her usual attire of heels and slinky dress could rock up at a 'gentlemens club' and be admitted as long as she claims she self ids as a man of course”

Oh don’t be silly < tinkly little laugh> that wouldn’t do at all!

I do wish some trans men would start making demands. I wish a trans boy would apply to Eton, for example.

Me too Bertrand. I think it's quite telling that they don't.

Bravissimo provide gender neutural bras in black, white and nude to anyone who wants to wear a bra

www.bravissimo.com/collections/t-shirt-bras/

www.bravissimo.com/collections/black-white-and-nude-bras/?limit=16&page=2&sortBy=default

Sorry wrong thread, that was meant to be for the bra thread.

Trans boys don’t make a fuss because they know it will get them precisely nowhere

Interesting thread. However, there are so many stereotypes running through it, with respect. There are no two women exactly the same, no two men, so we cannot and should not generalise about transwomen or transmen either.

I'm a female by anatomy and some of my personality/ psyche is stereotypically ' female'. I have a good friend who is a transwoman. Who out of the two of us has children ? Who out of the two of us prefers to wear dresses and make up, to get false nails and go to regular hair appointments?
While the other one lives in jeans and boots, never bothers with make up, nails or hair, is covered in mud daily , is great at diy, etc etc...

The red herring that transwomen are hijacking what it means to be a woman is ridiculous, if you don't live by lazy generalisations or totally incorrect stereotypes.

I would love to see the statistics for these supposed sex attacks by transwomen , you know, because they are use "our' facilities. And be very realistic about who the biggest threat to women, including transwomen, actually are.
I am not possessive over 'my" identity as a woman as I can't be labelled or put in any generalisations about what it means to be a woman. Apart from, to me, being a woman...no, being a human being...means not being remotely insecure about my diifferences to other human beings, and theirs to mine. Precisely because we are all so different...and I refuse to use caricatures or stereotypes or generalisations in regard to other humans.

We can share spaces with other humans...even if they are not quite the same as us. It's fine. No hysteria here.

Kindness and acceptance shouldn't depend on labels. In fact, stop with the labels based on appearances, in all ways. You can say you feel like an alien from planet zog, I'll only care about how kind and thoughtful you are.

Once again, that word ‘hysteria’ to describe women objecting to something.

LaLa

I do see that you ^could6 have read the thread carefully, as you have misrepresented the arguments

But yes, the use of the word 'hysteria' is interesting.

Thanks for that lala - i think it some elements of the trans community who have whipped up the hysteria by screaming transphobe at anyone that questions anything in regards to their 'hijacking' of the female sex and wanting access to lesbian vaginas with their male penises - male oppression in a wig and lipstick!!