Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

ALittleBitOfButter

Quite. Why does extreme transactivism seek to normalise the medicalisation and sterilisation of GNC children, while at the same time seek to normalise adult TIMs retaining male bodies and being accepted as "actual women"?

TIMs get to keep their ladypeens and we're bigots if we say the ladypeen doesn't belong to a woman.

Children must be sterilised asap and we're bigots if we say this isn't a good idea.

Which is it? Medication and surgery pronto, or medication and surgery not required?

WTAFisthisshit

It is everything.

Layer upon layer of ill thought out nonsense.

If the men currently advocating to go to women’s prisons were transferred, it would increase ‘women’ sex offenders by a massively significant number.

Sport. It’s just nonsense. There is no other word for it. Men should not be competing against women. The lower end of test of testosterone they have to comply with, is more than any woman in sport has.

Where are all the transmen competing in men’s sports? Lobbying for access to men’s spaces? Demanding they are transferred to men’s prisons?

Why have Parliament decided that women identifying as men cannot inherit a title and occupy a space in the House of Lords? Surely it can’t be because they think they aren’t real men? Or does it only work one way round?

Men and women are not equal. They are not the same, because of their biology. Women are disadvantaged, because of their biology. It shouldn’t be that way, but it is.

Men, however, seem to be able to opt out of all that. And still be the winners. Funny that.

Datun has any country had self ID for long enough that's there's data to look at? If trans woman are now recorded as woman is it even possible to tell if self ID leads to a reduction in violence towards trans woman?

“Betrand this is probably not what you mean but I am pleased to see a few LGBT care homes opening up because a lot of LGBT people are getting abused by fellow residents in regular care homes and face prejudice from carers.“

So LGBT people need and deserve their own spaces (and obviously they do) but women who aren’t LGBT have to share. Is that how it goes?

it's not just crime stats though is it? It's EVERYTHING. I could impact on education, health care, insurance, it's mine boogling.

Oh absolutely, WTAF. Representation of males compared to females in the armed forces, politics, police, science, law, business. Long term, it has the potential to skew statistics on so many things. Particularly when looking at small cohorts of people, e.g. board members of FTSE 100 companies.

YY Datun. That House of Lords exemption tells us what they really think.

Injury is the main risk regarding team sports competitions. Though the all male women's teams fielded by Iran seem absurd.

Effectively, this model promotes sterilising gender non-conforming children.

Yes, predominantly homosexual gender non-conforming children. If history won't look kindly on the people who protested the mutiliation and sterilisation of homosexual kids, history can fuck right off.

what we do understand is being gender non conforming children. What happened to those 2000 kids (minus 37) in previous years? We're here. It was us. And we're perfectly happy being women and not living in denial.

YES. This. Exactly.

Some of us gay, some of us not. Some of us more gender non conforming than others. None of it getting in the way of being women.

I was in Canada recently, and expressed my personal opinions about matters TRA. Eventually, to help me out, people let me know what their personnel departments had drilled into them, what anyone associated with the university's agreed response must be, almost what the party line is. If I didn't stick to this ideology I even felt that I would be reported to the police for my doubt and for sticking up for myself.
The smug badgering by aggressive, mindless, privilege-ranking, vile-saying, fools never lets up. Its worse than 30 years ago when it was dangerous to be feminist.
I wondered whether we are being distracted from something else. However this debate is so important. This is really happening. The discussion is not for sport.

*However what we do understand is being gender non conforming children. What happened to those 2000 kids (minus 37) in previous years?

We're here. It was us. And we're perfectly happy being women and not living in denial. We know we don't have to own heels or makeup and that doesn't make us a man.*

^This.

I mainly lurk on MN and think I've commented 3 times on this topic, once to say I was spartacus, once the other day and now this one. But the more I read the eloquent and fact based discussions from FWR (and the lack of constructive dialogue from opposing positions) the more vocal I get. Today I filled in the consultation on education saying my 3 priorities were to teach children about consent, biology and avoiding gender stereotyping. I also commented on a friend's gender critical fb in support which was a big step. Being aware of how little consideration is being given to women has galvanised me to speak up.

WTAFisthisshit

I believe Ireland, Canada, some American States, Denmark and Malta have self ID.

There are lots of issues with Canada and the US. Although I don’t know if they are officially tracked, they are tracked, by women. Hence This Never Happens. I’ve been told that the women in the UK are much more aware than they were in the US and Canada. Probably because we have already seen it unfold elsewhere.

Women had trouble getting the statistics on English prisons, for instance. They had to do the research themselves. They came up with statistics, which were the refuted in the press by transactivists.

The Ministry of Justice then thought they ought to do their own research. Which they did, and it transpires that women had actually underestimated the statistics. (Which was kind of deliberate, as they didn’t want to be accused of transphobia, so erred on the side of caution.)

Ireland is a tricky one. Currently, they don’t have the same protocols as we do here. So transwomen are not transferred to women’s prisons, for instance. They also have very few transwomen, by comparison, even if you base it on percentage. It’s far lower than it is here.

There are no official stats, as yet. But anecdotally women have said that no one even knew self id was going through. And, culturally, transwomen in women’s spaces would not be acceptable, apparently.

It’s difficult to make comparisons. Ireland is woefully thin on the ground in terms of women’s rights, so may not have too much trouble with reinforcing gender stereotypes? Which would account for the fact that men aren’t going out of their way to demand access to women.

Watch this space, though. Women are on the case.

Being aware of how little consideration is being given to women has galvanised me to speak up.

Well done. It’s such a strong dichotomy. The more silenced we are, the more frightened we feel, but the more people who speak out, the bigger the snowball gets.

There is a ground swell. Far more than there was two years ago. Women are speaking out. And they are gaining traction.

Thank you for sticking your head above the parapet. It’s stressful and takes courage. And it is massively appreciated.

Still a few pages behind on the old thread but I saw this post and am so hopping fucking mad I need to respond now, whether Debbie is still around or not (hope she is):

Debbie and Perfectly what do you think of the suggestion upthread of making GNC the protected characteristic?

It actually already is in effect in a round about way under "gender reassignment" due to the by association clause.

I'm sure that will now be met with howls of complaint from all the GNC people here that they are not trans, that's true of course if that is who they are, but doesn't change the fact the trans provisions in the EQ act protect against discrimination due to non conformance to sex stereotypes. Of course it could be made better.

Too fucking right I'm howling with complaint How fucking dare you?

You are advocating that women give up all our sex-segregated spaces, our sports, awards, political representation and ability to meet politically and culturally without men, but hey GNC women can get a bit of protection too as long as we are willing to let people think we might ID as men.

Turns out this identity bullshit isn't so important after all.

Turns out this identity bullshit is dripping in misogyny.

Who else is completely not surprised?

Fuck this shit.

Thanks Datun it is really, really appreciated all the effort you put into responding on these threads.

What was the first country to introduce self ID was it USA? And when was it 2016?

Did it come in under Obama? Was it a contributing factor to Trump? I never got why woman voted for Trump.

Datun you're right about Ireland being a weird one. Our population is tiny to begin with and it's only been two years. There's a very gobby contingent of TRAs who centre themselves in the pro-choice movement and one of the keynote speakers at a recent feminist conference for young women in their teens and early 20s was a late-transitioning TIM. So the kool-aid is being drunk, very little questioning or debate-it's seen as bound up with gay rights and a progressive cause. Probably too early to say really.

Probably too early to say really.

The thing is the entire issue should not be determined by how many women are actually raped. (Then reported, then an arrest, then a trial, then a conviction).

Low level sexual harassment is just being accepted as par for the course.

It’s not acceptable to erode women’s boundaries piecemeal. As though we have to constantly justify discomfort, intimidation, unfairness.

Then it’s all added up, and totalled against some imaginary standard that we have no access to.

This is our bloody lives. We live this. We know this. No IS a complete answer.

And I will never tire of saying it.

No.

Well yes. I've only become aware of the full implications of self-id very recently as is the case for most of my friends. But we were never asked.

But we were never asked.

It’s almost unbelievable isn’t it?

I’ve been told that the women in the UK are much more aware than they were in the US and Canada. Probably because we have already seen it unfold elsewhere.

Yes I've been told this too. "Those British TERFs"

Datun just curious, did you support Donald Trump's ban on Muslims entering the US? It seems there's a similar logic at play with your proposal of banning all transgender women from female spaces. A perception it would be harmful and damaging to women to allow these people anywhere near them.

I would be so saddened for my daughter to grow up on a world so full of fear and suspicion, to lack tolerance and empathy.

Toilets are sex-segregated whereas USA is not religion-segregated. Your attempt at a parallel fails completely.

Adult males have always been banned from female-only spaces like toilets and communal changing rooms.

I think a fear of other religions and a fear of transgender people is pretty similar.

perfectly

I think a fear of other religions and a fear of transgender people is pretty similar.

Nobody on this thread is scared of either people of a different religion or transgender people.

This thread has now moved on to the effects on sorts and data collection/analysis. Please could we have your well reasoned thoughts on those issues rather than your attempt to gaslight woman with what you feel 'saddened' by.

I feel 'saddened' by all of this but when I meet with my MP I will be taking Datun's well reasoned posts with me not my emotions.

My goodness perfectly, that is not debating in good faith.

I think a fear of other religions and a fear of transgender people is pretty similar

In what way are these pretty similar?