Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

So LGBT people need and deserve their own spaces (and obviously they do) but women who aren’t LGBT have to share. Is that how it goes?

Bloody LGBT again...

I'm a lesbian. One of the group that no longer matters to Stonewall. I picked up a copy of "lesbian" magazine Diva the other day & saw a fawning interview with Susie Green of Mermaids, an article by Munroe Bergdorf & the prolific use of "queer". Perhaps I should just be grateful it didn't feature Riley J Dennis.

I DON'T WANT to disappear into a trans-dominated alphabet soup.

I DON'T WANT to see young lesbians being told that unless they put biological males first & see them as potential sexual partners they're bigots.

I DON'T WANT elderly lesbians in supposedly lesbian-friendly care homes to find themselves expected to share bedrooms with biological males.

Gender as a concept is the root of so much of this problem. The fact that gender conformity / non-conformity exists at all is ridiculously regressive & sexist.

Perfectly-please would you stop doing that? It's really tedious.

Perfectly do you tell your daughter that if someone is acting in a way that makes her feel uncomfortable, to take reasonable precautions to ensure her safety? Particularly if she is in a vulnerable situation - which being female she will be far more often than your son.

And how is religion a parallel argument? Maybe you're under the impression that Muslims want to use our C of E churches to recite their prayers? Odd...

Nazis yesterday, racists this morning.....

So much easier than facing difficult discussions and trying to find ways through.

They always resort to the Nazi thing. Even though sterilising children is...oh hang on.

Well I've always thought the whole trans trend on tumblr/Instagram etc had shades of Hitler youth.......

Perfectly, if you're so keen on the racism parallels, riddle me this: why in 50s America did white bathrooms exclude the oppressed group (blacks), whereas this is all about allowing the oppressor class access to the oppressed group?

Also, what's the difference between Rachel Dolzeal and Caitlin Jenner?

Thanks.

I can do that one, Prickly! Jenner is a thuggish scary XY person and thus untouchable. Dolezal is not, and can safely be scorned for her ‘identity’.

Prickly you have this this the wrong way around, transgender women face the same if not more oppression than your everyday woman. They do not have male privilege as they are transgender + they face additional prejudices from people such as yourself.

Perfectly we're now onto sports and data please engage.

Perfectly-does that mean you think that means transwomen deserve more consideration than natal women?

perfectly are you Ryan? They're loving him on twitter.

I have (in the past) had to take my employer to court to get paid the same as the men doing the same job for my then employer. Do not lecture me about who's the most oppressed ever, perfectly. 1/4 of women suffer rape or sexual assault during their lives - by men. All of us have to live with the ever present threat of male violence. Two women a week are murdered by their partners or ex partners (there has been, what, one murder of a transwoman in the last 10 years in the UK). You are talking shite. Not only that, you are talking misogynistic shite straight out of the MRA handbook.

How dare you come on a feminist board and tell women they are "less oppressed than those nice XY people".

^Debbie and Perfectly what do you think of the suggestion upthread of making GNC the protected characteristic?

It actually already is in effect in a round about way under "gender reassignment" due to the by association clause.

I'm sure that will now be met with howls of complaint from all the GNC people here that they are not trans, that's true of course if that is who they are, but doesn't change the fact the trans provisions in the EQ act protect against discrimination due to non conformance to sex stereotypes. Of course it could be made better.

Too fucking right I'm howling with complaint angry How fucking dare you? ^

I think such a visceral response to the suggestion that the protections you want are already in place under "gender reassignment" protected characteristic shows that the claim that many posters make about no transphobia here are entirely false.

Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.

And yes it is entirely possible to be GNC or even trans and be transphpbic,

I thought Debbie and Perfectly were married? That's why they went off to ice the cake 🎂 together?

Is there any evidence that transwomen face more oppression than women?

I've never come across Debbie before this thread but it really shouldn't come as a shock to you that there is more than one pro trans feminist is the world. Have a glitterball

Instead of arguing, I invite you all to have a drink with me in the Marlborough in Brighton. It used to be a women’s bar and now it is more split between trans, lesbians a few straight men and a few straight women. And do you know what? Nobody feels threatened. Nobody feels colonised. Nobody throws their toys out the pram because they don’t want to be surrounded by anybody a bit different from them. We all happily share the gender neutral toilets, have a drink together and get along just fine. That is the kind of world I want my daughter to grow up in and the kind of feminist I hope she will become.

Again - any evidence that transwomen are more oppressed than women?

Yes, where's the evidence that 1 in 4 transwomen are raped or sexually assaulted? Where's the evidence that transwomen are paid on average 10% less than men?

Queen well they are being physically attacked for starters:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/01/transgender-woman-describes-being-assaulted-by-neighbour-in-random-attack-7046053/amp/

Prickly you have this this the wrong way around, transgender women face the same if not more oppression than your everyday woman

Ah yes perfectly you must be talking about Pip Bunce, who goes to work as either Phil or Philippa depending on how he feels that day and recently won an award for 'FT Top 50 Female Champions of Women in Business'. Pip was already very senior in their field before any sort of transition, and says that everyone has been very supportive and that 'coming out' for half the week hasn't affected his career.

I'm sure that Pip's female colleagues who are really pleased with him winning the 'Female' champion award. I guess there were just not enough actual women out there worthy of the award.

There's your oppression.

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

Are transwomen physically attacked more than women?

nstead of arguing, I invite you all to have a drink with me in the Marlborough in Brighton. It used to be a women’s bar and now it is more split between trans, lesbians a few straight men and a few straight women. And do you know what? Nobody feels threatened. Nobody feels colonised. Nobody throws their toys out the pram because they don’t want to be surrounded by anybody a bit different from them. We all happily share the gender neutral toilets, have a drink together and get along just fine. That is the kind of world I want my daughter to grow up in and the kind of feminist I hope she will become.

I'm glad you are all happy with your choices. Doesn't mean you have any right to inflict your choices on others, like nobody has the right to inflict heterosexuality on you.

Again Can we please have your thoughts on how this all impacts on sports and data collection/analysis.