Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

It does confirm my suspicion that the reason there is a #NoDebate, is because the ideology implodes when challenged. It’s grounded in nothing. An opinion, or a feeling. No critical thought at all.

Yes. #nodebatebecausewecant

Yes this whole 'trans sisterhood' goes one way only.

But what use is a GRC anyway? It doesn't stop discrimination or abuse.

In terms of TIMs, gender reassignment is the protected characteristic currently. So a GRC means that TIMs who have one are entitled to apply for women-only programmes (awards, shortlists, grants, etc) and women-only jobs unless the awarding body or employer has invoked the (very restricted) Equality Act exemptions.

Ereshkigal

Luckily Hope seems very happy and self assured and will take on people like Owen Jones. Owen never responds. He's only interested in the views of trans people that back up his own views.

I don’t know if I’ve just spent too long on here, FWR, honing my radar, but the ‘tells’ that people like Owen Jones display go off like a bloody klaxon. Deafening.

I would love to see this. I would love to see a strong campaign to get men to accept transwomen.

Yes. And I would like to see people like perfectly and debbie target their attempts to persuade others towards men. I have never seen a single transactivist nagging men to create affirmative action programmes for TIFs/transmen, so that they are adequately represented in the category of "men".

Why isn't Owen Jones putting his weight behind TIF-only shortlists in male-dominated professions? Why isn't he amplifying TIF voices? Why isn't he campaigning against the primogeniture exception to the proposed legislation?

I think we all know why Perfectly and Debbie and Owen are silent on these matters. I think we know why they spend their time arguing with feminists instead of men. Because extreme transactivism is a sexist movement.

Me? I'm against sexism. I couldn't give a fig how anyone presents or identifies. Have at it, everyone. I'm here to try my best to reduce sexism - I'm here for girls and women, including TIFs. Not here for men, including TIMs. Simple.

perfectly:

Prickly you have this this the wrong way around, transgender women face the same if not more oppression than your everyday woman. They do not have male privilege as they are transgender + they face additional prejudices from people such as yourself.

Sorry, this annoys me. Playing oppression olympics? Big no-no. One, if you're going to claim that one group is the "most oppressed," you're going to have to back it up with stats. Two, just because one group is oppressed that doesn't mean that they can run rough-shod over the hard fought rights and gains of another oppressed group. It doesn't mean one oppressed group can demand access and resources from another oppressed group. You don't see BLM protestors demanding that feminists center black men in their activism. You don't see feminists demanding that gay men allow us access to their spaces. Because you don't improve the status of one oppressed group by lowering the status of another oppressed group.

Queen considering the very small number of trans women in the world compared to the number of women it's impossible to do a comparison. Violence against either is abhorrent and I would hope to live in a society that offered the same protection to trans women as all women.

In the same vein; yes, it's quite possible to compare violence against two groups no matter how small they are. You go with the rate, which is basically number of instances divided by total population. Datun posted a nice chart comparing murder rates a page back.

I completely agree with your last sentence. Violence against trans people is abhorrent. Here's my thing, though. In order to effectively fight against that violence, you have to honestly analyze it. You have to figure out which people in a given population are most at risk and who is perpetrating the violence. And when you look at the data for trans women, the trans women who are most at risk for violence are poor trans women of color and trans women who are exploited in prostitution. Men are the perpetrators of this violence (not radical feminists). So why do trans rights activists focus on women's spaces and not, say, join radical feminists in fighting against male violence? Why not focus on anti-racist and anti-poverty initiatives for trans women? Why not, again, join radical feminists in supporting the Nordic model and setting up resources to help trans women exit prostitution? For that matter, why not push for laws and measures against housing and employment discrimination? All these things would be more effective against the violence trans women face, rather than demanding that women give up their spaces; spaces that were specifically set up by women for women to escape the violence they face?

I've been wondering, you've got your, I'm going to call them old school transexuals who identify as women but accept that they are male. When did this belief start spreading among trans people that if you identify as female that you actually are female.* despite very obvious physical evidence that you are not?

*or male as the case may be

perfectly just picked this up off another thread. How do you feel about this person? Do you think they are a woman?
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/transgender-woman-found-guilty-murdering-prostitutes-article-1.3291879

Perfectly, I've read most of these two threads and your entire argument appears to be based on a strawman.

Your strawman is that gender critical women have an issue with transpeople, especially transwomen.

When in fact, gender critical women have an issue with gender (the clue is in the name) and it's cousins; misogyny, male violence, female oppression and male supremacist society.

Trans ideology is simply the latest manifestation of misogyny, male violence, female oppression and male supremacist society. No more no less. And this is why so many women resist it.

Transwomen are men. They belong to the class men. Male violence against women and girls is a well documented phenomenon. There are charities, institutions, laws, customs and organizations that work locally and globally to protect women from male violence. The existence of male violence is not controversial (although just how much of it there is is definitely downplayed).

Sex segregated spaces, sex segregated sports, sex quotas for jobs, funding, etc exist for a reason. These things exist because of a general recognition that girls and women are oppressed by men and that male violence is part of that institutionalized oppression. These spaces also exist as recognition of female and male biology.

Trans ideology and the existence of trans people does nothing to change the above. Zero, nada, zilch. Rien du tout.

The above sentence is key to understanding why trans ideology is dangerous, particularly to girls and women and to understanding why your arguments are anti-woman strawmen.

Trans ideology demands that women ignore what they know to be true;
a) that female biology and male biology are different
b) that girls and women are oppressed the world over due to point a
c) that VAWAG exists as a global class issue

Trans ideology has shown itself time and time again to promote sexism, lesbophobia, misogyny, homophobia, the erasure of girls and women, the erasure of lesbians and homosexuals and to actively fight for the sterilization of children, especially ones who are likely to be gay or gender resistant.

Gender critical women do not have an issue with trans people. We have an issue with the lies promoted by trans ideologues; that transwomen are female, that lesbians are men, that the erosion of hard fought for sex segregation is not an erosion of female rights to privacy, dignity and safety.

We have an issue with an ideology which places male fetishisation of girlhood, womanhood and female body parts above the humanity of actual girls and women.

Get it?

Here's Hope

The Marlborough: famous scene of the murder of Lucy Packham, battered to death by her landlord husband in 1900. A policeman heard Lucy's husband threatening to kill her. The inquest found that he had killed her. But the jury convicted him of manslaughter and he got four years.

The Lucy Packhams of this world still need sex-segregated refuges and hostels. 117 years later.

Beachcomber

I can’t be the only one who read your post with a little sigh of relief.

One assumes, particularly on here, that women are only too well aware of the inequality that underpins society. And how it has been subverted by the trans ideology.

Men, by invoking a pink brain, (of all things), have managed to assert their dominance in unimaginable ways.

It’s painfully obvious to me, and many women.

But seeing it laid out so comprehensively in your post does declutter one’s head in a very calming manner.

Thanks Datun.

Something else that I would like to add is that perfectly's insinuating that gender critical women are akin to fascists and Islamophobes is foul. It's a really foul piece of either goady fuckery or of misogyny.

Perfectly is the one defending an ideology which promotes the erasure of homosexuality, sterilization of resistors and which uses propaganda and threat of violence, blacklisting and ostracization when it encounters non compliance with its dogma.

Calling the people you disagree with Nazis and then berating them for not meeting you halfway in agreement with your extremist ideology is, um, ironic shall we say at best.

Beachcomber and Datun I have no problems understanding your argument, I just respectfully disagree.

My own RL experience of transgender people and the amount of research that has been conducted into the phenomenon of being transgender, supported by the law, states that it does exist. Some biological males have genuinely been born into the wrong body and therefore identify as female. Trust me, it's as 'woo' to me as it is to you but it doesn't mean it's not true.

If you cannot accept the above as true then of course you cannot accept trans women as women. I do accept the above as true and I therefore do accept trans women as women.

I think such a visceral response to the suggestion that the protections you want are already in place under "gender reassignment" protected characteristic shows that the claim that many posters make about no transphobia here are entirely false.

Tell me Debbie, is 'identity' important or not?

You appear to be arguing that transwomen's identities are so important they are worth giving up female only spaces, sports, scholarships, leadership positions etc., not to mention any meaningful definition of the word 'woman', and if we complain we are 'transphobic'.

You also now appear to be arguing that it doesn't matter at all if GNC women are assumed to be transmen and in fact we should be grateful for 'gender reassignment' in the EA because it allows us (theoretically!) to be GNC as long as we don't assert that we are women, and if we are pissed off about this state of affairs and think we should be allowed to be GNC without falsely assuming an 'identity' that is not ours we are, again, 'transphobic'.

How can these arguments fit together unless the only point you are making is that female erasure doesn't matter?

Is this woman transphobic for being pissed off at the obliteration of butch women?

Beach and Datun thank you for the clarity of your posts

Some biological males have genuinely been born into the wrong body and therefore identify as female.

Can you explain how you believe this happens, Perfectly? Given that you are born with the body your genetics give you and there's no evidence that gender roles are innate, it seems to be a bit of a logical fallacy that this can happen, maybe you can give an expert opinion as to how researchers in the field have got it all wrong?

perfectly I get it that you're trying to find a compromise.

My own RL experience of transgender people

We all know transgender people. And yet we're still concerned about women and girls.

and the amount of research that has been conducted into the phenomenon of being transgender, supported by the law, states that it does exist. Some biological males have genuinely been born into the wrong body and therefore identify as female.

Please link to the research! Please.

Trust me, it's as 'woo' to me as it is to you but it doesn't mean it's not true.

I'll believe it's true when I see well conducted, peer-reviewed research. Research that overwhelmingly challenges the wealth of research, history, statistics, science and medicine currently indicating that it is indeed woo.

Xenophile researchers in the fields have actually got it all right, that is why trans people are legally able to change their passports etc from male to female.

Is anyone joining me down the Marlborough?

It’s not true perfectly.

Any studies are so far inconclusive. Partly because it already assumes a difference between male and female brains. Something which is not in the slightest bit conclusive.
Most people’s brains are a mosaic. They’re not delineated down the middle.

They are also very plastic. Studies cannot determine whether any thickening in one part of the brain (I’m not a scientist, sorry), is innate or acquired.

It also doesn’t take into account detransitioners. Whose stories are remarkably similar. And all of which talk about gender roles being pivotal.

Neither can it account for non binary or gender fluidity.

Another thing it doesn’t take into account is autogynephilia. An explicitly male fetish. How does a female brain acquire a fetish that only men have?

However, it wouldn’t at all surprise me if there wasn’t a neurological reason for gender dysphoria. In the same way it could probably account for effeminate men and butch women.

All of which is immaterial.

We do not segregate based on the brain. We segregate based on bodies.

Women are treated differently to men based on their body. Not their brain.

As soon as we can address inequality on the basis of how we think, I’ll be right with you.

Some biological males have genuinely been born into the wrong body and therefore identify as female

Did someone post something the other day from an 'old time' transexual who explained that they used this term (in the past) to explain something that defied explanation, but which gave people an answer they could at least understand in essence? The same quote went on to explain that this expression is being used very differently by TRAs to mean something more literal which the transexual woman did not agree with at all.

The GRA - gender recognition act. Everything we have been discussing. Page 5:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/researchreportt27transsresearch_review.pdf

Perfectly - does the wrong body thing happen at birth or is it at conception? Content warning: I ask this because it was Catholic practice to not baptise still born babies because the soul only materialised at birth.

Pencil Re your link. I think the doctor was arrogant and should have at least a warning and a re train. Fucking appalling behaviour.

But no-one's disputing that gender dysphoria exists, and must be an incredibly difficult condition to live with. No-one's disputing that trans people exist and are for the large part peace-loving and non-threatening. That's not what the argument is about.

the amount of research that has been conducted into the phenomenon of being transgender, supported by the law, states that it does exist
Gosh not this again.
Everyone knows it exists. Everyone knows there are people out there who feel like they have been "born in the wrong body".
The thing we disagree with is that being transgender means that the person actually is the sex they identify with.
The differences between men and women are a lot more concrete and tangible on a sexual characteristics level than they are on a brain level. There is no strong evidence of brain sex. Therefore "being born in the wrong body" is most likely to be a feeling, that may or may not be generated by some defect in the brains wiring.

Woman is a material reality, not a feeling. It's describable. It's repeatable.

My definition of woman: any adult, where lack of ability to bear children would be considered a cause for medical investigation rather than entirely expected