Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

You know what, perfectly? I'll take a rain check. You wouldn't want to drink with someone you think is a Nazi, a racist and a transphobe now would you?

That was a brilliant post Datun

Interesting what you said about most murdered transwomen being South American sex workers.

I recently read an article on The Pool (a media outlet which I think might peak trans soon!) by Juno Dawson who was talking about all the transwomen worldwide murdered in 2016, or similar period. It was all about dangerous it is to be a normal transwomen just trying to get on with your life etc. I clicked on the link in the article and there were all the names of those murdered. Pretty much all of them were in Brazil, with a few in other nearby countries and maybe a couple elsewhere. These were Brazilian sex workers.

Now I am absolutely not saying that the lives of those transwomen is in any way less valuable than the life of any other human. But this rhetoric that a transwoman in Britain cannot walk down the street in broad daylight without fear of being murdered on the spot is just total bollocks. In fact Paris Lees told us all about how she loves getting 'eye fucked' in the street and how we should try and embrace it more.

Men should give up some of their domination in careers and institutions by affirmative action programmes for TIMs.

I would love to see this. I would love to see a strong campaign to get men to accept transwomen.

Where are all the campaigns by trans people to stop male violence, for instance?

Where are all the Twitter feeds, the hashtags ‘#male loos are my loos’.

Where is their support for women’s aid shelters and women’s rape refuges. Because, the ridiculous thing is, transwomen DO have power. Lots of it. They have managed to create social change and changes to the law in a matter of a decade. It’s taken women hundreds of years and constant pushback to make any changes.

They could be an awesome power for good. Why don’t they stand behind us?

perfectly don't play divide and conquer here. I'm with Datun she just expresses herself far, far better than I am able to.

I'm not getting this mixed up with 'trans people are bad I don't want them anywhere near me'

I'm clear on what I want. Open and honest public discussion and debate on this amongst politicians using actual experts not activists. I want everybody to be free from harassment, violence and doxxing. I want fair play for woman to have a place at the table.

I define woman as adult human female.

jellyfrizz I phrased that badly. I think there is a lot of concern on this thread about men dressing up as women to access female spaces for sinister purposes. We all agree that is bad.

Due to the very nature of what transgender is (often biological males are wearing dresses) harmless, respectful trans women are suffering the consequences of this fear and suspicion.

Betrand the offer is there! Let's do it grin wouldn't it be a happy ending if all of us on this thread ended up going for a drink together and having a laugh.

How does this help form government policy that impacts vulnerable woman in prisons who don't have a voice on this thread or anywhere else.

Oh so much that, Datun. Where are transwomen in the campaign against FGM for example-except in wanting it to be called something else that isn't trans exclusionary?

Where is their support for women’s aid shelters and women’s rape refuges. Because, the ridiculous thing is, transwomen DO have power. Lots of it. They have managed to create social change and changes to the law in a matter of a decade. It’s taken women hundreds of years and constant pushback to make any changes.

They could be an awesome power for good. Why don’t they stand behind us?

Yes, exactly this! Why is it always women who have to make way?

There is a transwoman called Hope, who goes under the handle Streetvoice UK (I think, I don’t do Twitter).

He dresses in an overtly sexy way, fishnets, etc, very out there.

He is on a mission to go in every male public toilet in the country taking selfies of how he is never attacked, despite signalling his status.

Consequently, women love him. He feels like an ally. A true supporter.

respectful trans women are suffering the consequences of this fear and suspicion.

I totally agree with this, TRA's are shitting all over these people. Most woman would've always welcomed these woman. They're now at risk from additional violence from men who are concerned about the government not protecting woman.

They need separate legal rights and spaces the 'trans woman are woman' mantra does nothing for them.

I will not throw every woman and child in this country under a bus in a misguided attempt to help them though, because it won't.

The thing that's doing my head in about perfectly's comments, and the reason I think she's being a goady fucker, is the way she constantly flips back and forth between calling us nazi tranphobe racist bastards, and then without drawing (virtual) breath tells us she wants the same thing - for women and genuinely trans to be protected from predatory men (which, incidentally makes her as TERF-y as the rest of us in the tumblr/twitter-verse). That's why I don't think she's in good faith. You can't simultaneously claim to be interested in a sensible, middle ground compromise (though I'm not sure there is one in the case of prisons - you just have to accept that transwomen are not women and say they can't be housed in the female estate), and at the same time shriek "transphobic racist nazi bigot" at the people you're trying to compromise with. And to do so suggests to me that perfectly's main aim here is goading, not trying to convince us of anything. She's getting off on the attention.

Due to the very nature of what transgender is (often biological males are wearing dresses) harmless, respectful trans women are suffering the consequences of this fear and suspicion.

I just can’t see how crying ‘oh, you’re all just transphobic #nodebate’ helps this though? There’s been so many excellent points made on this thread about sports, self-identification, safe spaces, children...and you’ve ignored all of them because it’s just so much easier to cry transphobia.

If you genuinely cared about the rights of harmless, respectful transwomen, you’d be fighting agains the tide of hate that’s coming from TAs because it helps no one. And you’d be campaigning for men to make their spaces safer for TW because as Datun says, that would kill two birds with one stone.

Data is a very interesting point.
Look at convictions for sex crimes. In 2016 there were 126 women in prison for sex offences and 13800 men. Let's say 0.05% of those men came out as trans (very conservative when rates are estimated at 0.6% population). Then we would have an extra 7 "women" convicted of sex offences. Just over 7% increase.
Would the media report this increase as being caused by trans women? No, because 1) it's being recorded on the basis of gender ID so there's no way to tell, 2) that would be transphobic.
So instead we would/will get loads of speculation about why women are committing more offences, women do it too, blah blah that will stop us understanding the nature of sex offending and impact on how as a society we actually deal with sex offenders and their victims.

YY Prickly.

Do you know what? I've realised no amount of shouting about terrible transgender people will ever convince me they don't have the right to identify as women. Even if the 27 trans women that were murdered were South American prostitutes I will never feel stop feeling sad. They were our fellow women and I will mourn them as such.

I wish you all well in your endeavours to reach peak trans and if you ever wish to de-transition Debbie and I will be down the Marlborough. We have cake

Oh so much that, Datun. Where are transwomen in the campaign against FGM for example-except in wanting it to be called something else that isn't trans exclusionary?

Well exactly. It doesn’t feel as though they actually want any part of the ‘sisterhood’. Wanting to change the names of female biology. Talking about basis of women’s oppression actually being a privilege, etc.

I’m sure there are many transwomen who understand. One of the good things about this issue is that feminism and the reasons for it, is being talked about, far more.

Removing the iniquitous element of transactivism, which, in my opinion, is based on misogyny, could turn it around.

I don’t see it happening, though. Sadly.

Less than five minutes ago you didn't know who Debbie was!

No one is saying that they "don't have the right to identify as women". FFS. Just that they are male.

And no one said that it isn't terrible that Brazilian trans prostitutes are murdered. Do you realise how many women are murdered in Brazil every single day? 13. It's a very violent country and life is cheap for everyone.

Fellow women my arse. I notice you don't feel 'sad' for the actual women who experience actual violence and murder, no they should STFU and make way for the transwomen

Even if the 27 trans women that were murdered were South American prostitutes I will never feel stop feeling sad.
Gosh that's very SWERFy perfect. All people's lives are equally valuable.

"There is a transwoman called Hope, who goes under the handle Streetvoice UK (I think, I don’t do Twitter)."
They (I don't know their preferred pronouns) gets dog's abuse on Twitter. They are constantly dismissed as not trans at all, just an attention seeking cross dresser.

There is something very odd when you are speaking to somebody who constantly moves the goalposts to fit a narrative.

First it was there is no such thing as a a bad transwoman. Refuted. So then talking about bad TW is vile.

Then the relentless ignoring of women saying it’s not about trans, it’s about men (trans or not).

Then the assertion that TW are oppressed. Refuted.

That they are murdered. Refuted.

Then ultimately, I don’t care if I’m wrong about everything, I’m still right.

It’s like debating with quicksand.

It does confirm my suspicion that the reason there is a #NoDebate, is because the ideology implodes when challenged. It’s grounded in nothing. An opinion, or a feeling. No critical thought at all.

Luckily Hope seems very happy and self assured and will take on people like Owen Jones. Owen never responds. He's only interested in the views of trans people that back up his own views.

They are constantly dismissed as not trans at all, just an attention seeking cross dresser.

Doesn’t surprise me. It’s cult-like. You’re either in, all the way, or you’re out and ostracised.

Even more impressed with Hope now, though.

Removing the iniquitous element of transactivism, which, in my opinion, is based on misogyny, could turn it around.

Chance would be a fine bloody thing, it's this element who are currently being wined and dined by government ministers.