Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

perfectlywretched

Never heard of Gaydar girls and would never use the guardian.

And just because you aren't aware doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The ones for older women are loads worse.

FattyCat give gaydar girls a try - lots of older women on there.

Perfectlywretched

how older? I'm 50s

perfectlywretched i'm puzzled by your posts. Can you link to where Datun has lumped all trans people together? Because as far as I can tell, I've never once seen Datun do that. She is simply writing out that some men with AGP are behaving in the most appalling manner and a significant amount of TRA'S (not transsexuals) are AGP's. The type of stuff she's posted - you couldn't make it up. It's grim.

I had a look at a trans forum the other day. I was interested in seeing the other side of the discussion. I have compassion for people with genuine dysphoria, as most people on here do.

I'm not that easily shocked but I was shocked by this. One man knew he wanted to be a woman simply because he'd always wanted less body hair. Another implied he'd sexually assaulted women and wanted to become a woman as an act of self-hatred. He fantasised about having a shrunken penis but also lovely perky breasts. (I guess then consent isn't an issue, hey). A third had grown up having vivid masturbation fantasies of being a woman and being violently and repeatedly raped by multiple men. He was ashamed of his fantasies but felt it would help if he could actually enact them.

Fuck being nice to people. Why? Just because we're women? There is so much measured, compassionate discussion on here. It's the other side which lacks compromise.

FattyCat it’s worth a try, it’s free to browse and you only have to pay to send and receive messages if I remember rightly.

CopperKettles I am not defending the position of sex offenders who happen to be TRAs, I am saying that post implied that to be a TRA means to be a sex offender.

There is a lot of confusion on here about who the ‘enemy’ is? Transgender people? Just TRAs? Just violent TRAs? Just violent human beings who assault women?

My issue is with the violence - being transgender is irrelevant. The law will deal with the crime regardless.

to respond back to the original OP, I am sad and weary too. I’ve been a feminist all my life, marched for women’s rights and fought for women’s equality but here I am in a position where I have to choose between my feminist principles and my support for the transgender community.

Many of the posts on here are truly depressing and pushing me further and further away from feminism. To be honest the trans movement is gaining a new ally in me... if I feel sad, angry, depressed and helpless and I’m not even trans I can’t begin to imagine how they feel.

Yes, all my sympathy is with males who are angry that women don’t want them in their movement too.

Yes, all my sympathy is with males who are angry that women don’t want them in their movement too.

You big meanie. You should be nicer to people and more polite. Then people would not be pushed away from feminism and towards a movement that is currently pushing for removal of womens rights.

Many of the posts on here are truly depressing and pushing me further and further away from feminism. To be honest the trans movement is gaining a new ally in me... if I feel sad, angry, depressed and helpless and I’m not even trans I can’t begin to imagine how they feel.
If the posts you are talking about are datuns then you are doing the equivalent of fingers in you ears and "la la I can't hear you".
This awful stuff that some trans identified males do is going on and suggesting we shut up because it's upsetting to read isn't going to stop it happening.

I've seen the video of the person and dildo, it makes me so cross that women breastfeeding is reported and blocked all over the place but blatant exhibitionist pornography is fine. Grim. And i cant see that person as female when they've posted a video of them baked from the waust down, with a penis visibly enjoying anal penetration. It's just ridiculous.

"There is a lot of confusion on here about who the ‘enemy’ is? Transgender people? Just TRAs? Just violent TRAs? Just violent human beings who assault women?"
Well, if you want an enemy, violent human beings who commit/threaten violence against other people is a pretty good start. But there is no reason why transwomen and feminists need to be enemies. There are things that need to be talked about. There are compromises and accommodations to be made. Why are transpeiple so reluctant to engage? #nodebate is not a helpful thing to cling to.

perfectly

datun wasnt 'implying' anything either

You are reading things into their very interesting and informative posts that arent there..at all

My issue is with the violence - being transgender is irrelevant. The law will deal with the crime regardless

That’s rather like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted isn’t it? And why we have sex segregated spaces in the first place. When men,
Trans identified, cis, non binary or whatever they identify as, stop being violent towards women, then I’ll be more than happy to welcome them into women’s spaces.

Would you be happy sharing a prison cell with a man? I mean he might assault you, rape you or even kill you, but never mind because the law with deal with the crime regardless right?

First paragraph bold fail. I’m responding to perfectlywretched.

Yet again the women desperate to be cool and popular are ignoring other women. If they were better informed they'd have a stronger case.

When your so called 'intersectional' and 'liberal' feminism excludes other women and forces them to stay at home, isn't it time to stop and think?

Many of the posts on here are truly depressing and pushing me further and further away from feminism.

@perfectlywretched do you honestly see a woman in this photo, second on the left? In amongst the other women?

I am very old, and I remember when women got very over excited about gay rights- I can see similarities. A lot of misogyny was ignored or repurposed then too.

I am not defending the position of sex offenders who happen to be TRAs, I am saying that post implied that to be a TRA means to be a sex offender.

No it didn't. I honestly can't tell whether you genuinely misunderstood or are deliberately making unfounded accusations.

There is a lot of confusion on here about who the ‘enemy’ is? Transgender people? Just TRAs? Just violent TRAs? Just violent human beings who assault women?

Misogynists, especially violent ones. We're not confused.

My issue is with the violence - being transgender is irrelevant.

We have said this over and over again. I don't think you realise just how much you agree with us.

here I am in a position where I have to choose between my feminist principles and my support for the transgender community.

Why? Plenty of us manage both, including many transwomen themselves.

As Bertrand said: But there is no reason why transwomen and feminists need to be enemies. There are things that need to be talked about. There are compromises and accommodations to be made. Why are transpeiple so reluctant to engage? #nodebate is not a helpful thing to cling to.

Exactly this. The feminists want to talk, the TRAs will not only not join in, they do their damnedest to stop us talking in the first place!

perfectly are you happy with their nodebate stance?

The enemy is self-ID, which is being pushed through in all our institutions - schools, health service, the Guides, store changing rooms, etc - in advance of legislation requiring it.

The enemy is self-ID. Simple as that.

I am not defending the position of sex offenders who happen to be TRAs, I am saying that post implied that to be a TRA means to be a sex offender.

Well it didn't. That isn't what Datun has written. She's written quite extensively on mn about this issue and not once have I seen her imply that. Her posts stand out in here and she's consistent.

And there is a difference between an AGP and a sex offender. Clearly AGP's enacting their fetishes are deeply unsavoury but often they're not committing any crimes. A TIM wanting to be a woman because they fantasise about being violently raped isn't breaking any laws. Stephoknee pretending to be a little girl and be anally raped by her 'father' isn't either. Neither is a man who goes into a lingerie shop and gets off on intimidating the female staff with his manner. Neither was Danielle Muscato when he took a female spot at a homeless shelter.

It is abundantly clear that a large number of TRA's have AGP. It's depressingly easy to spot them.

Blanche and Bertrand thanks, and happy to move the conversation on.

lostplot I don't think the no debate stance is helpful, similarly I don't think it's helpful to say on Mumsnet 'they' ejaculate on toilet rolls in public loos to impregnate unsuspecting women (Dakun). Both come across as ignorant.

Lang I don't feel threatened by self ID but maybe as I empathise with having an 'invisible' identity. I have faced prejudice in my life because I'm gay. If anyone told me I could not identify as gay until I had years of therapy and some straight doctors had 'diagnosed' me I would be pretty put out.

How do you solve the issues of self ID @perfectlywretched ? Because I think there should be a fairly high barrier to any offender deciding to be in a female prison. Or man deciding to be in a women's shelter or refuge. Or a man deciding he wants to be doing a smear.

Because with self ID it's a human rights issue to mention any of this. Which terrifies me.

perfectlywretched since you haven't answered any of my other questions, please answer this one. How would you feel if having come out as lesbian as a teenage girl people started trying to convince you, you were really a trans man?

"I have faced prejudice in my life because I'm gay. If anyone told me I could not identify as gay until I had years of therapy and some straight doctors had 'diagnosed' me I would be pretty put out"

But you don't identify as gay- you are gay. You are a woman who is sexually attracted to other women. You are not a person with a male body who says that because they are sexually attracted to women they are a lesbian and it is therefore OK for them to want to have penitrativw sex with other lesbians using their lady stick, and that other lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to join in. And yes I know NATWALT. But it is considered transphobic to even say "Hang on a minute-that can't be right, surely? Can we talk about whether that's OK?"

I don't think it's helpful to say on Mumsnet 'they' ejaculate on toilet rolls in public loos to impregnate unsuspecting women (Datun). [It] come[s] across as ignorant.

What is ignorant about knowing what some perverts do/boast about and mentioning it? We know that a significant minority of males are perverts, rapists and sex criminals who get off on crossing women's boundaries. We know that self-identification is a gift to these men.
Do you think we should just keep quiet about it and not defend our boundaries against the pervs?

What is your qualm?