Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Lancelottie an AWFUL lot of adults about appear to have not met the expected stage of development in PSHE of a 60 month old in the EYFS.

Guardian I LOVE Hope (and your poster idea)

perfectly "I know plenty of women from other cultures, some of them even wear hijabs. It doesn't mean I think every woman in the UK should wear a hijab." What exactly do you mean by this statement and how is it an answer or even relevant to a poster who is concerned about the effect of the proposed changes to the GRA, particularly self-ID, on women from other cultures who are not allowed by their culture or religion to share intimate space with males outside of their immediate family?

YetAnotherSpartacus

Same here. The IOC threads. Then AGP. But the thing that really kicked it for me was the cotton ceiling. Because that went directly to the heart of the hypocrisy. Inclusivity, for men who want to be women, but not homosexuality.

Riley J Dennis peaked a lot of women with his insistence that sexual orientation was a preference, and a prejudicial one at that.

I peaked again when I realised he was writing for women claiming to be feminists. Telling lesbians they are transphobic purely the basis of their sexual orientation.

The likes of Owen Jones peaked me again. A gay man who supports the idea of the cotton ceiling, because he manages to make the concept only apply to women, but not men.

It’s misogyny in action.

Marriage equality is a terrible comparison. Two women or two men getting married has literally no effect on anyone other than the people getting married. It poses no safety, dignity or legal concerns for other people. None at all. If I don't agree with it I can choose not to do it. If I wanted to, I could campaign against it without risking death threats.

I'll break down why I think they are the same.

Someone's woo belief says that a female cannot marry their female partner

Someone's woo belief says that a female who only wants female partners is committing a hate crime
or (it works on two levels)
Someone's woo belief says that their effeminate male-attracted boy child is actually female, so they sterilise them as being gay is wrong.

God knows how anyone can leverage gay marriage to shore up an ideology that specifically denies homosexuality.

But they do. Trans logic.

If I wanted to, I could campaign against it without risking death threats.

Just to say that that may not actually be true.
for instance
for instance
for instance
Become "the enemy" of any minority group and the extremer elements will act extremely. It is not nice but not unique.

Lemme rephrase that more honestly for you JAPAB::

"Become 'the enemy" of any group of men and the extremer elements will act extremely. It is not nice but not unique."

Whilst I disagree with her opinion JAPAB, I fully support her right to voice it without threats and intimidation.

Feminists can take a similar #nodebate stance but I doubt it will get anywhere.

The feminists on here, Mumsnet, are debating. That's what all these bazillion threads are about. (And that's also why there's a lot of derision towards "ploppers" - trans activists who run in, post something goady, and then never, ever return to discuss the issues that they've stirred up.)

Become "the enemy" of any minority group and the extremer elements will act extremely. It is not nice but not unique

Except the extreme elements are the group in this case.

Normal transsexuals aren’t the slightest bit interested in this ‘transwomen are women’ agenda. The extremists are not representing them. They are representing themselves.

This is what trans activists do to the 'free speech bus'.

www.buzzfeed.com/dominicholden/bus-opposing-trans-rights-vandalized?utm_term=.fqgejoLo9#.vim2wnNnr

JAPAB and Agerbilatemycardigan

Just to be clear, I support gay marriage. It was a theoretical 'If I wanted to...'

I retract the 'If I wanted to, I could campaign against it without risking death threats'. Getting into a discussion about which groups get most abuse for their unpopular opinions is unlikely to be productive.

But people should be able to voice unpopular opinions without fear IMO. And I can't condone no platforming.

Feminists can take a similar #nodebate stance but I doubt it will get anywhere.

Where do you see feminists taking a nodebate stance?

A true nodebate stance in this instance would be saying that GRCs should not exist period and that people must remain legally their birth sex forever. And opposing SRS too.

Which I really really doubt any feminists want, despite certain posters making out we are all opposed to trans rights. rather than actually giving a shit about the rights of females amongst all of this madness.

The current GRC process is just right. A compromise between both 'camps'. Transsexual people are happy with it. Transactivists not so much. Probably because one of the requirements is a diagnosis of sex dysphoria. When transactivists seem perfectly happy as for all intents and purposes (and their behavior shows this too)...men. with female penises and such.

The proposed changes do not take into account at ALL the rights of female people (and to a lesser extent, male people). Only the feelings of transactivists. Most transsexual people I have read about/spoke to completely oppose the proposed changes.

The only thing I think could maybe change about the GRC process is this requirement to 'live as' your chosen sex for 2 years. As I cannot understand what 'living as' a woman/man actually means. All I can think of are stereotypes tbh.

The current GRC process is just right. A compromise between both 'camps'. Transsexual people are happy with it.

There is also a slight misunderstanding, though. That GRC just gives men the legal status woman. It is not necessary to access women’s spaces (apart from prison, where it is still required).

The equalities act states you cannot discriminate on the basis of someone’s gender reassignment. Which means they just have to have the ‘intention’ of transitioning. So, fairly meaningless. Because it can be just telling a mate.

Transactivists want to change gender reassignment to gender identity. A subtle shift in focus. Which does not require any intention to do anything. At all. As though identifying as a woman is a nothing thing.

The tweaking to the GRC is what has alerted many women to the equality law that is already in place.

Personally, I see no reason to accept that law. It should be rewritten.

In the meantime, many women want the exemptions, that are already available, to be beefed up.

BatShite I agree - the current GRC process is appropriate and protects vulnerable people and I also agree the 'living as a woman for two years' is undignified. I really don't know which bathroom these people are supposed to use.

perfectly have you read the fair play for woman list? What do you think of that?

WTAF I think it's great but then I would consider a transgender woman to be a woman...

perfectly FairPlay for woman consider a woman to be XX.

What do you define a woman as? I use the Oxford English Dictionary I think WHO use that definition too?

Going with the religion analogy again, transgender people truly believe they are women and should have the same rights as all women.

Gay people truly believe they were born that way and should therefore have the same rights as straight people.

Some criminals truly believe they are innocent, based on objective reality the rest of society still keeps them in jail.

Some people truly believe they ARE God, we section them.

We've been through this before perfectly and you didn't answer my questions.

WTAF If a transgender woman tells me she is a woman, then I respect that. I don't understand it, I actually think if I was born in a male body I would just get on with it! But I appreciate not everyone feels the same as me and I believe in the phenomenon of being transgender.

Someone might tell me they don't believe in being gay, it's just a fad, it's just a mental illness, I might change my mind... they are entitled to their opinion. If that person said I should not have the same rights as straight people because of my 'choice' I would be angry. I think that's why I empathise with trans people more than most.

transgender people truly believe they are women and should have the same rights as all women.

I wonder where this myth comes from.

I'm a transwoman and I don't believe I'm a woman, truly or otherwise. I have never met a transwoman in real life who belies they are tbh.

Also if transwomen have the same rights as women then does that mean we can no longer talk about transphobia or report transphobic hate crimes? If we really are women then surely there is no such thing as transphobia.

Apologies Order I was not intending to speak for all trans women, just those that do consider themselves born in the wrong body.