Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Perfectly nobodies here's saying you shouldn't have empathy for your fellow human beings.

We all here have a huge amount of empathy for the woman and children who could be inadvertently affected by laws made based on feelings.

That's why we'd all like the laws of the country we live in to me based on objective reality with as little loopholes as possible, not 'feelings'.

That's why we all like an open debate in parliament with the voices of woman well represented and the MP's all free from intimadation. Because MP's are human too and I empathise with them.

Disclaimer- I've said we all, I'm well aware I don't speak for everyone on this board, though I am happy for anyone who's been aware of this issues for longer than I have to speak on my behalf.

curry also got a huge amount of empathy and respect for you

"Going with the religion analogy again"

You didn't respond to my reply to your first religion analogy. Or anyone else's.

For us to have a conversation, it has to go two ways.

Beyond I think God is a woo belief but it seems to have convinced a lot of people and formed a lot of laws.

Sometimes you have to acknowledge other people's woo beliefs and give some leeway, even if you think they're utterly bonkers.

curry
Lovely to hear from you as always and thank you. I expect you know a fair few transwomen. None of them claim to actually be women? I have also heard Miranda Yardley say the same.
But the loudest message we hear is 'transwomen are women' and at the most extreme end we get sorted into 'women and cis women'.
Why has the whole idea of being trans changed in this way do you think?

I am fighting for lesbians to have a sexual relationship with those they are attracted to.
I am fighting for women and children to feel safe in public spaces.
I am fighting for trans, gay and autistic children to have the right to a fully functioning healthy body in adulthood, and freedom to have a family, should they so wish.
I am fighting for people to wear whatever clothing (excluding indecent exposure and adhering to relevant uniform) of their choice in public.
I am fighting for children to play with any toy of choice.
I am fighting for people with dementia and learning disabilities to feel safe and not open to being reported for a hate crime.

This is to me an issue of various vulnerable groups with competing rights, when only one group (which in my opinion is the most privileged group) being consulted.

Jesus was all about love. I realise others think people like myself believe in sky fairies. I don't expect others to believe as I do, and respect that they want to live a different life as we were given free will.

Two consenting people have the right to love each other and legally marry in this country, it has no impact on anyone else as far as I can see.

There are two types of marriage, the legal and religious types. Why anyone would want to be part of a religion that prevented them from achieving a religious marriage ceremony is puzzling to me. Do you realise there are many reasons, other than homosexuality, that prevents certain people being married in religious ceremonies? Some religious ministers do not want to marry certain couples for various reasons, some religious ministers are happy to marry any couple in love. You can choose to reject a religion in this country, as many do.

Gay marriage and trans rights don't impact society in the same ways, in my opinion.

Gay people truly believe they were born that way and should therefore have the same rights as straight people.

But those rights don't involve the removal of anyone else's rights. The Trans lobbyists want to remove my rights in favour of theirs.

Not any more Tuna but we had to fight for marriage equality. Gay marriage was only legalised three years ago.

titchy you would have to ask a Christian or a vicar who opposed gay marriage their thoughts on that. I had a lot of anger saying it was making a mockery of their religion and their sacred space (ie church) allowing the gays in.

Perfectly I'll ask again what rights DO transgender people want that they don't already have?

Can transgender people get married?

Someone said a thing in another thread that made a lot of sense. Trans women/transvestites/transsexuals/insert-your-preferred-term have been around for a LONG time and there's never really been any issues with most women accepting them into our social groups, or toilets, or wherever groups of women hang out. Trans women have no physical need of our sex-segregated spaces (women's health clinics, abortion clinics, women's prisons, women's DV refuges, etc), as they have different biology: 'genuine' trans women, it would appear from what some have said, are completely ok about not wanting rights to those spaces, they are RESPECTFUL of women's rights and only wish to exist peacefully alongside us. In my opinion, anyone who tries to force their way in to something they're not qualified for is doing it to make a point or to be deliberately inflammatory.

I would be prepared to put money on Lily not still being Lily in two years time. But there'll still be lots of bewildered men identifying as transwomen and trying to muddle through life just like we all do, gay or straight, male or female, black or white, old or young. And people like Lily are making their lives even more difficult to navigate because of this constant scrutiny and desire to create divisions.

WTAF to be treated as women if that's how they identify. I understand and appreciate this raises concerns for women which is why I posted the suggestions earlier up the thread.

Perfectly you say you were born gay but Riley J Dennis claims homosexuality is transphobic!

Also you can read the thousands of peak trans stories on reddit's Gender Critical. All from former allies like you.

I see we have had some manifesto's for the GRA so here is what seems like a good start to me. I have kept it on point for the GRA as that is the legislation which is being proposed to be changed to self determination, There are intersections with the Equality act but as that act is not currently proposed for major overhaul I haven't addressed it.

1. The application would require standard ID documents (passport, DL etc) to establish applicants Identity.

2. The application is accompanied by a sworn oath statutory declaration which if dishonest and fraudulently made carries criminal penalties.

3. The application replaces the GRA04 panel and the resultant issued GRC's purpose is to issue an updated birth certificate and make an entry onto the register in the same way that it does under GRA04,

4. The resultant GRC conveys broadly the same rights and protections of the current GRA04 GRC (ie its is only the application process that is significantly changed)

5. A fraudulently and dishonestly obtained GRC can be withdrawn/overturned via the judicial system.

Would this seem like a reasonable solution as it mainly keeps in place the provisions of what we have now which a few people have said they are ok with.

It provides the streamlined process trans people are calling for without the intrusive medical requirements and meaningless waiting period (whats so magical about 2 years!)

It provides for a deterrent with false declarations carrying penalties and gives the opportunity for review and withdrawal of GRC's based on false declarations.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7fdj38/peak_trans_vi_tell_your_story_here/

perfectly define treated as a woman in legal terms?

perfectly to be treated as women if that's how they identify

So, if they are women, should they be called every three years for a cervical smear? (for example).

The vicar who opposes gay marriage doesn't have to marry someone of the same sex. They also don't have to conduct the ceremony. Same as Catholic doctors can opt out of prescribing contraception or providing abortion advice. But that opt out doesn't stop women accessing those services elsewhere within the same GP practice.

Trans lobbyists however DO want to stop me accessing services I currently have the right to access.

The original GRA was brought in largely because we didn't have equal marriage at the time. It allowed trans people to marry someone of the same sex by first changing their birth cert to the opposite sex. There's an exemption for CofE to refuse to marry trans people.

Until we had equal marriage, anyone who wanted to change gender and who was married would only be granted an interim GRC. They would be expected to legally end their marriage before being granted a full GRC.

titchy that's why I propose you write to your MP and request a licence where certain events and venues can explicitly ban anyone male or born with male anatomy. This protects your spaces.

*snort of derision.

A licence, seriously? No. We dont need permission to be women.

titchy you would have to ask a Christian or a vicar who opposed gay marriage their thoughts on that. I had a lot of anger saying it was making a mockery of their religion and their sacred space (ie church) allowing the gays in.

But churches don't have to conduct gay marriages if they don't want to, do they? I didn't think they did anyway?

Which is why gay marriage doesn't actually affect anyone else or their rights.

When gay people campaigned for equal rights, they never 'demanded' (as in ATH) that anyone else's hard fought for rights be impinged to accommodate yours.

Transgender women want 'the right' to be treated as women. Well there's only so far you can go with that before it starts to affect actual women's rights and, given that transwomen are not actually women, that is the time to say 'stop'.

Debbie6666 excellent suggestions, this would address pretty much all the concerns.

5) A fraudulently and dishonestly obtained GRC can be withdrawn/overturned via the judicial system.

This is bobbins though isn't it? How do you spot the fraudulent and dishonest ones when to question a trans person's identity claim is in itself 'transphobic'?

This is bobbins though isn't it? How do you spot the fraudulent and dishonest ones when to question a trans person's identity claim is in itself 'transphobic'?

There is no law saying that though is there?