Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Just my opinion, you might not want moderate feminists in your gang! wink

..... how rude. And how totally dismissive of the women who have spent hours patiently responding to you. I thought you were the one saying the world needed to be a kinder, more inclusive and understanding place?

What you actually mean is that women must be kind, inclusive and understanding to men. At all times. They have no right to be treated that way themselves, and women who won't get in line are the meanie weirdos you're implying here. Your wink btw reminds me rather of the lovely Madigan who when requested not to put kisses on tweets to women who did not appreciate it, stated they didn't care how those women felt and would do it anyway.

perfectly I think we all agree here that nobody should be telling people that they can't exist because of someone else's imaginary friend.

I also think we also agree that woman's consent shouldn't be over ridden by people's imaginary opinion of biology.

I was under the impression that transgender people were already protected under the 2010 equalities act.

What rights DO transgender people want that they don't already have?

And I think fair play for woman have produced the list you're after perfectly, have you read that document? What do you think of it?

Please can someone explain what peak trans is? I have heard a few people say it but no idea what this means.

WTAF, thanks; I'm not sure I would even have got round to describing myself as a feminist until recently (being somewhat too busy earning peanuts while scrambling for SEN help to pay attention) but I seem to be towards the radical end of the scale according to TERF definitions.

I'd have said I was a natural trans ally, if a slightly puzzled one, up to a couple of years ago, but honestly, the Thou Shalt Not Argue bullshit coming from the schools and the media is such a league away from anything that seems to have roots in actual equality or fairness or reality or sense.

Yeah that religious based gay persecution is totally different to this religion based gay persecution.

Check twitter. My interpretation of it is the moment that someone realises that TRA's are actually MRA's and actually don't give a flying fuck about transexuals who are just trying to go about their everyday life free from persecution and ridicule and are in actual fact trying to get the law changed for their own ends.

Type the hashtag into twitter and see what you get.

Lancelottie working for peanuts and knowledge of SEN probably explains why your posts make sense to me

This list, WTAFisthisshit?

Thanks WTAF - I tried to google it but nothing came up so thought it was some kind of code word! A lot of the time I post a lurker pipes up with 'I've reached peak trans' it's enough to make a person paranoid.

Re: 'moderate feminists'.

This is what has most shocked me about these debates tbh. That what would have been seen as very old-fashioned, liberal, rights based, 'no means no', equality driven feminism say 20 years ago, is now seen as some far end of 'radical' feminism.

And people that are in no way radical feminists are being called TERFS by people who don't actually know what radical feminism means.

The misogyny is being driven by MRAs, but it's important to name them as TRAs as that's the agenda they're driving.

Christina I think marriage equality is a good comparison. 20 years ago most moderate Christians opposed it, these days a lot of moderate Christians support it.

That's the one pencils

perfectly I think the marriage equality thing is what is know as a 'straw man argument'.

Hopefully one of the highly educated, long standing posters will be along shortly to let me know if I'm getting the hang of this or not?

In googling peak trans put " " around the phrase otherwise you get bus information for The Peak District.

Marriage does not exist for the protection of an oppressed group who are at risk of violence, so marriage equality isnt a good example.
Equal marriage rights extended existing rights without affecting people who are already married, who wish to marry, or the institution of marriage.

Its a shame activists dont put this much effort into doing something positive, instead of causing harm to women.

perfectly

Again, why do you think women point out things like six-foot man in a beard?

You think it’s offensive? Firstly, it’s completely true. Secondly it’s because we are constantly having to refute the idea the transwomen don't make women uncomfortable (if in their intimate spaces).

Late transitioning men, those most likely to be in women’s spaces, because they are most likely to be AGP, are generally not small and effeminate and they are attracted to women.

Many of them see no reason, whatsoever, to actually emulate women in the way they look (making women discomfited is part of AGP).

You asking women not to talk about it in the spirit of compromise, is wilfully ignoring one of the very reasons why women are concerned about this!

These two transwomen are both extremely high profile.

You too, then, WTAF?

I suppose I've spent years explaining, as kindly as I can, to a very beloved son that he may well wish the world worked in a certain way, but reality isn't quite like that (and also that he wasn't getting a quad bike aged 10, even if we could easily just sell his brother's bike and the lawnmower to make room for it; and that we couldn't make his TA move schools with him because she had her own life; and that his friends sometimes wanted to do Girl Stuff without him there even if he didn't like it... etc, etc).

If he could, reluctantly, accept the message 'Yes, you'd like that, but it would suck for other people and it's not happening,' I really think a bunch of supposed adults should be able to do the same.

What do you think of that list, perfectly?

I love that TIM called Hope, who keeps tweeting things like "I was dressed like this - just used the men's, no one beat me up!"

There really no need for gender non-conforming people to use facilities segregated for the use of the opposite sex. I would definitely be behind a poster campaign in men's toilets reminding the users that intimidating, or assaulting people for being homosexual or gender non-conforming is a hate crime - penalty... #-# years.

Peak trans refers to a moment that trans allies come face to face with evidence/demands/behaviour that leads them to conclude that all is not what it seems in the trans movement and become critical of the rhetoric. Or terfs as people prefer to -slur- call us

Pick trans is the process which many women go through when they first encounter the ideology.

A desire to be kind and inclusive is the basis. But gradually, as various parts of the ideology sound more and more bonkers, yet gain more and more traction, suspicion sets in.

Often ignored in the spirit of tolerance, but is there in the back of the mind niggling away.

More things happen which are difficult to swallow. If you start to talk about it, you realise how quickly you get abused.

Concerns and worries are met with violent reactions. At which point your patience tends to run out. You become more confrontational, ask more questions, and when the threats start, your cognitive dissonance snaps. At which point your attitude changes because you have reached your limit. Peak trans.

Yes it is that epiphany moment..... ohhh I see - this is bullshit - the Emperor is actually wearing no clothes.
Peak trans.....

Oddly, I peak transed in 2 seconds flat and then spent nearly four years in despair with only a few people to talk to before a search finally led me here. It was just after the Spartacus carnage and MNHQ was a lot more ... Trigger happy with the banning in those days. I've noticed a distinct shift in the year that I've been here.

BatShite But I would say hormone blockers should be banned completely. Thinking about your and YetAnotherSpartacus' comments re. puberty blockers, you're right. A ban would need very strict controls on Internet sales though.

perfectly Thanks for sticking with the thread. Not quite sure how the faith-based belief of an 'imaginary friend' who dislikes gay marriage is any different from the faith-based belief that it's possible to change reproductive sex. I still don't think that faith-based beliefs are any sensible basis for legislation.

Many religious people would find the 'imaginary friend' comment hurtful BTW. Does that mean that you shouldn't say it? Of course not.