Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Thanks for replying and apologies for not answering everything. Taking emotion and sensationalism out of it I am sure there is some common ground to be had.

By the way similar arguments are raging in the trans community, the activists calling 'genuine' transsexuals 'truscum' and all sorts.

If someone more articulate than me wrote a feminist manifesto on women's and transgender rights incorporating some of my suggestions I would be right behind it and I think it would persuade a lot more 'moderate' feminists to stand with you too. Just my opinion, you might not want moderate feminists in your gang!

I believe that the reluctance of the majority of people to share spaces in hospitals, ie mixed sex wards, has been well researched and evidenced. It certainly has had cross party support although recently (due to austerity cuts) the numbers have increased.
The NHS is quite clear about the need for single sex wards, bathrooms and toilets here:
www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/NHShospitals/Pages/in-hospital.aspx

4.Self identifying ‘women’ and transgender individuals are allowed to access female facilities by default. This represents the majority of the population that doesn’t mind sharing spaces. Any venue or event (including individual scout groups) can apply for a licence to ban transgender individuals from entering female facilities. Similarly there will be a licence available to ban gender conforming individuals from entering transgender spaces. This one seems very sad and divisive but necessary to ride out this particular storm. It gives women the freedom to choose venues with the licence. It also gives women like me the freedom to avoid them.
Completely disagree. I think we should keep sex segregated spaces according to biological sex but (not women's job/concern though) campaign for one self-contained unisex cubical, similar to disabled facilities, for those who are afraid of sharing with their own sex. Gender identity has no bearing on sex segregation and it should not either.

@perfectly
Thank you for listening and coming back again.
I know that you are being humorous but I suspect that many of us here used to be quite moderate feminists. It's just that once you see misogynists attempting to erase women and causing harm to children, it's easy to channel the inner radical!

I think it would persuade a lot more 'moderate' feminists to stand with you too. Just my opinion, you might not want moderate feminists in your gang!

This is so very disingenuous.

There is nothing radical or actually even 'feminist' in not wanting to sign away hard won rights which protect women and girls.

Casting these very mainstream views as some kind of extreme radical feminism is really just bizarre.

2. hormone blocker legislation should remain, extra safeguards for transgender children

Absolutely. perfectly - what's your view on the charity Mermaids, which is lobbying for the NHS GID to use the informed consent model adopted widely in the US and Canada? Because this means that all safeguards would be dropped?

3. Olympics committee rules throughout sport:

I think the olympic rules need to reviewed and strengthened to prevent those with XY biology to have unfair advantage over XX irrespective of testosterone levels. Perhaps, like the paralympics, there should be separate sport events with nuanced leagues accounting for differences, (eg- a TIM may feel 'weakened' by hormones, yet still has male typical lung capacity, heart size, etc) for those who don't want to compete as their birth sex or would be cheating to (TIF taking testosterone).

I don't even know what a moderate feminist is. There are different types of feminist, but I honestly don't think there are degrees of feministy-ness.....

Just my opinion, you might not want moderate feminists in your gang!

Well done for not giving up from me too, perfectly!

Although I will repeat - the focus of this board is to oppose the proposed changes to the GRA. The proposed changes represent self-ID, which is an extreme position, dispensing with gatekeeping. The mirror image to this extremism from the transactivists would be for this board to be opposing all legal gender changes and repealing the GRA to reflect this. Nobody on this board is suggesting that. Nobody. This board takes a moderate position. Please refrain from mischaracterising it.

Current transactivism = extreme position allowing legal gender change at will, obliterating women's sex class rights.

Mumsnet feminist board = moderate position that gender identity is fine as a protected characteristic so long as sex also remains a protected characteristic.

Transphobic = extreme position that trans people should remain in their legal birth sex and should never be allowed to access services or places for the opposite birth sex.

If the majority of women really cared about sharing spaces they would speak up and say so.

Unfortunately that is incorrect. I do not DARE speak up as I would lose my job (university sector - I suspect most public sector employees feel the same).

6.All women’s prisons should be single cell (I think most are anyway). Any transgender woman must be allocated a single cell. Any transgender woman that had committed a sex offence would be separated from other women at all times.

I would say that any changes to women's prison must be solely for the benefit of female prisoners and not for the sake of TIM.
Prisons should be sex segregated according to birth sex for the privacy, safety and protection of females from males.

TIMs should serve in men's prisons, but if they are deemed at risk they should have appropriate measures taken to ensure their safety. More should be done to ensure the safety of all prisoners, not just those who identify as trans.

A TIF should be placed in woman's prison, but if the artificial hormones cause aggressive behaviour that puts other women at risk, should be held in a separate cell.

I do not DARE speak up as I would lose my job (university sector - I suspect most public sector employees feel the same).

Same for me.

Hi perfectly and thank you for sticking around. It is only through debate and discussion that we see that we do have a lot of common ground, and that we can pinpoint the exact areas that we need to address further.

I think the medical notes suggestion is better worded by Guardian, in that if a woman requests a female, she is given someone born female. It's as simple as that, no need to bring in stages of transition. Doesn't it strike you as odd that if someone specifically requests a woman that it should need to be clarified that they mean an adult human female?

However, your suggestion doesn't seem to take into account that whilst some women (for example, some Muslim women) would not want a man touching any part of their body, many women request a female GP when they want to discuss gynaecological problems, but have no issues whatsoever in discussing their migraines/depression/twisted ankle etc with a male GP. In other words, it is likely that many (most?) women are only specifically requesting another woman sometimes, so only need that provision sometimes.

I really don't understand what you mean by this protects "the transgender person’s right to practice" though. How is their right to practise being threatened? Surely you don't think that male doctors' right to practise is threatened if a woman wants to discuss her period problems with another woman? This just comes across as you trying to pretend that women somehow want to hound transgender people out of their jobs, so that you can defend them against some imaginary injustice.

I don't have time to respond to the other points at the moment, but what I think about point 4 will not come as a surprise!

3.Any transgender individual wishing to compete in competitive sport must abide by the same rules as the olympics committee.

I think that like many other things in life, being trans probably means that you should not compete. Participate, sure, but I can't see how you can make women's rugby safe if people built like my DP could just arrive and start tackling them.

4.Self identifying ‘women’ and transgender individuals are allowed to access female facilities by default. This represents the majority of the population that doesn’t mind sharing spaces. Any venue or event (including individual scout groups) can apply for a licence to ban transgender individuals from entering female facilities. Similarly there will be a licence available to ban gender conforming individuals from entering transgender spaces. This one seems very sad and divisive but necessary to ride out this particular storm. It gives women the freedom to choose venues with the licence. It also gives women like me the freedom to avoid them.

No. Personally I don't see the need for gender segregation at all. If trans people feel the need for gender segregation that's fine, I don't need to go into trans spaces if they don't want me there.

Sex based segregation should remain however, because there are times when I would prefer that male bodies are excluded. (and I know many men have times when they would prefer women weren't loitering around too)

can apply for a licence to ban transgender individuals from entering female facilities

This is a weird bit - it's not trandgender individuals that women would like to keep out of women's spaces - but males - so transmen would still be fine, no need to have a license for that.

Of course this is covered by my suggestion that sex segregation, not gender segregation is what's enforced.

This represents the majority of the population that doesn’t mind sharing spaces.

Most recent polls from the last couple of months say 65% of people don't want unisex toilets while only 35% do, and 71% of people don't want unisex store changing rooms while only 29% do.

Approval of shared spaces is not the majority position.

Lang a non binary friend of mine is campaigning loudly on Facebook for children to be given easy access to hormone blockers. Their argument is children should be given bodily autonomy. I have publicly told them how strongly I disagree and how dangerous this is.

Just because I support transgender rights does not mean I would ever back the crazy proposals put forward by the TRAs - a lot of you know most of the trans community do not agree with their radical views. Similarly I am a feminist but I cannot adhere to a lot of the trans bashing and scaremongering on here.

Perfectly Its clear that you dont know any women from other cultures, and dont care about what happens to them.

Men can move over to make room for trans people, since women have the most to lose. Or you can fight for a third gender neutral space.
Once women see how safe it is for them to use it, they'll join your voluntarily.

perfectly - I realise you're not an ideologue. However, you are constantly misrepresenting positions and levels of support. Overton windows aren't helpful to honest debate.

Irk I know plenty of women from other cultures, some of them even wear hijabs. It doesn't mean I think every woman in the UK should wear a hijab.

LangCleg could you post a link to that poll on shared spaces please? I’m interested in having some evidence to counter OJs claim that a lot of my leftish friends have taken at face value. I knew he couldn’t be right but it would be good to be able to prove it.

the trans bashing and scaremongering on here.

perfectly

So fight for a third space for trans people, and invite women to join you. Those that can, will.

Similarly I am a feminist but I cannot adhere to a lot of the trans bashing and scaremongering on here.

You keep saying this, please, please point it out - otherwise you really do start to look like someone saying stuff just to provoke a response that can be posted to discredit us.

There are many times I don't mind shared spaces. There are many times that I would prefer to be among women (generally when I'm going to be undressing around strangers) - I don't want to lose the right to be around women. I support the right of people to be able to set boundaries like that.

the trans bashing and scaremongering on here.

And yet again you show your hand..

There is not trans bashing nor scaremongering on here. as has been explained over and over.