Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Yes, that all seems perfectly reasonable. What about crime statistics? Would crimes-particularly of a violent or sexual nature - committed by transwomen be recorded as being committed by a woman?

4.Self identifying ‘women’ and transgender individuals are allowed to access female facilities by default. This represents the majority of the population that doesn’t mind sharing spaces.

Where is your evidence to support this assumption that "the majority of the population" doesn't mind sharing spaces, perfectly?

And even if it were true (I suspect it's not, though I'd like to see the figures) why are you so happy to throw a minority under a bus, and make supposedly "women-only" spaces completely inaccessible to some women by including males in them? What makes this OK at all?

Any transgender woman must be allocated a single cell.

All this would mean is that transwomen would get a privilege (not be overcrowded) within women's prisons AND still have access to vulnerable women prisoners. That is not a good outcome.

It would also represent the majority of women who it doesn’t bother.

Be interested to know how you have determined that most women wouldn’t mind being treated by a transwoman?

I'm still concerned that it's natal women who have to actively seek out the exemptions. An opt out for natal women while transwomen get what they want by default.....

And no business will apply for the opt out because they'd be surrounded by placard waving TRAs picketing them.

How about -

1. We keep things as they are.
2. I'll support you as you campaign to break down gender stereotypes.
3. That's it.

Because no elected MP is fighting the issue and 50% of the population is female.
If the majority of women really cared about sharing spaces they would speak up and say so.

I'm also interested to know why perfectly thinks the majority of women are fine and dandy with getting naked and vulnerable in the vicinity of strangers with penises.

Women seek out women only spaces to avoid being around men.

These are my suggestions for being taken seriously. Feminists can take a similar #nodebate stance but I doubt it will get anywhere.

perfectly

It’s good to make a start, as you have done. But it’s all a bit woolly with a lot of sadness intertwined.

Women need to know about the exemptions in place. As do service providers.

Culturally women need to be inafraid to object to males taking positions and spaces reserved for women.

Exemptions should be the first line of defence. They need to be beefed up and applied with no recourse.

Women need to know that if their spaces are to be protected, they have a right to object and those objections will be appropriate and acted upon.

In order for this to happen, debate needs to be had to alert the general public.

I would imagine most women MPs are pretty wary of being no platformed...........

I pointed out that Canada have legislated sterilising it's teenagers yesterday and accused of 'concern trolling'.

They have a term for everything.

perfectly, your number 4 spectacularly ignores the needs and current reality of women.

The need for sex segregated spaces is particularly important in situations when women are physically or psychologically vulnerable eg when undressing, using the toilet, receiving medical treatment or examination, as a member of a group for female survivors of sexual abuse, menopause support groups etc etc etc.

This is to do with having a female body within a patriarchal power imbalance, where the 98% of sexual offences are committed by men against women. Having a male body and calling yourself a woman doesn't mean that you have the experience that causes you to be vulnerable in these situations.

Women also need to establish their own boundaries in other situations, meetings, feminist groups etc as the effects of socialisation (which also can't be identified out of) mean that men dominate, put women down, magnify women's mistakes or errors whilst minimising those made by men.

Surely, in the name of reducing transphobia, we should be focusing our efforts and energies into persuading men to change their attitudes and behaviour towards trans people. They will then be able to use facilities appropriate for their biology without fear of abuse or assault.

Could you give some examples of women trying to force their ways into trans places, or expressing their right to do so? Because if you can't, you're putting forward a 'tit for tat' argument whilst ignoring that the demands to use another group's spaces are entirely one way ie it's trans people trying to force their way into women's spaces, not the other way around.

Your suggestions are completely abstract. They pay no attention to material reality, thus are pretty meaningless to be honest.

I think they are your suggestions for getting us to move the goalposts and shift over obligingly. Not least here on this thread so we can debate these new boundaries you propose rather than the ones we currently enjoy.

I don't think most women have any idea what the GRA is or what it will mean. But that's changing thanks to some great journalism recently.

What is unacceptable about the status quo? I mean actually - not gender feelz.

Feminists don't want to take a 'no debate' stance perfectly.

Groups only do that when they don't have coherent arguments and wish to use bullying tactics.

Still no concerns about the issues faced by transmen, Perfectly?

Your list doesn't actually mention them once. And it is a big old list, the focus of which is ensuring that men who identify as women get access to women's spaces.

It is hard to take seriously a narrative that centers the interests of a group of men and totally ignores the interests of the corresponding group of women. Impossible actually.

perfectly I appreciate you coming back to the thread. I can see you've put some thought into that response.

If the majority of women really cared about sharing spaces they would speak up and say so I honestly don't think it's occurred to the majority of woman that this could possibly be under threat. I think this is why feminists are trying to get the debate out into the public so that everybody is aware and it can be established what the majority of all woman think. What are you basing what you think most woman think on? What age bracket are you perfectly? Do you have children?

It is also very common - based on threads here and conversations in real life - for women (and people in general) to believe that anyone accessing female spaces is either female (obviously) or the old-school, fully post-op transsexual.

So when you say "most women don't mind", you need to bear that in mind.

Glad to see some common ground here, perfectly.

1.Notes on medical notes: reasonable compromise. Although I wonder whether there are enough trans HCPs in all roles to ensure that trans people can be treated by another trans person?

1. hormone blocker legislation should remain, extra safeguards for transgender children: also reasonable

1. Olympics committee rules throughout sport: no. Sport should be sex segregated (safer for women, Olympic rules allow testosterone levels for transwomen that are higher than those of any female)

4.Self identifying ‘women’ and transgender individuals are allowed to access female facilities by default: Absolutely no. Completely fine with trans licenses that exclude non-trans people. Trans people should have safe spaces if they want them.

5.Healthcare professionals, preferred pronouns: okay. But there should be no legal comeback for HCPs who get this wrong. The word ‘cisgender’ will be banned: good. Yes. Right behind this.

1. Prisons: No. Transwomen should be housed in the male estate. Segregated for their safety if necessary. So much could go wrong for women's safety here that I just don't trust the underfunded prison system to always get it right.

I agree WTAF

Very thoughtful post from perfectly

Don't necessarily agree with all of it, but thats not the point

Feminists can take a similar #nodebate stance

But we are debating...

2. hormone blocker legislation should remain, extra safeguards for transgender children: also reasonable

I'd also like to see the restoration of counselling services for those not wanting to take blockers, including counselling that does not take as given that a young person is 'trans', but instead is geared also to considering other comorbidities and other treatments so that the medical/chemical/surgical routes are last options.

We also need a point that covers teaching gender critical perspectives from nursery up - I don't mean overtly, but including gender critical ideas in play and learning and the development of resources for this. Teacher education also needs to be gender critical.

YetAnotherSpartacus Yes, completely agree about counselling. A more nuanced (and expensive in the short term) route is essential.

I fear that things have already gone too far in education. But GC education would be great.

This represents the majority of the population that doesn’t mind sharing spaces.

You really think the majority of women would be happy sharing changing rooms and such with male people? Even vice versa..I have spoke about this topic in de3pth with my husband and he says he would not be comfortable with mixed sex changing rooms either.

Thermostatpolice

Your answers match what I was going to say to the entire post perfectly.

But I would say hormone blockers should be banned completely. They are dangerous drugs and there really is no need to use them just so someone who may possibly be trans can 'pass' better as an adult. And also I am concerned by the near 100% of kids who go on blockers going onto cross sex hormones. Where if no blockers are used 80% of gender questioning kids desist and most of the desisters are simply gay adults. because of this, I see the use of blockers as gay eugenics.