Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

I would really like it if somebody someday actually cut and pasted a bit of "transbashing" on here. Because I am beginning to think it's a bit of sleight of hand to unsettle liberal people. It's very hard to formulate an argument when you're constantly checking that you're not inadvertently "transbashing" or "spouting hate and vitriol". Particularly when some people seem to classify practically everything that way!

I would like to simplify it down to:

If a division was originally based on different gendered expectations, let's work to get rid of it (clothes, colours, jobs, occupations, emotional expectations, marital roles etc.)

If a division was based on biological difference, let's keep it (safety, sports, shared bedrooms, intimate care, pregnancy rights etc.)

Unfortunately, I think what we're up against here is that he who controls the media controls the world.

I'm happy with all single room prisons. Assuming they have bathroom facilities in the cell and adequate supervision to keep group-spaces civil. In theory that'd mean we could have all mixed prisons, by category of offence (so obviously still not housing tv-license-avoiding women with violent rapists and murderers)

The level of supervision that would be required would surely help with prison violence in general, rapes in prison and possibly even prison suicide.

Ideal world.

Take "all" out there, obviously there will be women who don't feel comfortable with any amount of male presence due to their own circumstances. But still, we could have some mixed prisons.

I'd like to see a MASSIVE input of cash and respect into midwifery, early years, schools, social work, mental health provision, NHS in general, substance abuse support, DV intervention and restorative justice for non violent offenders so, that less people end up in prisons in the first place.

Meanwhile back in reality I think we should keep SEX segregation and isolate as many vulnerable or dangerous prisoners as possible from the main population.

I also am not 100% opposed to the death penalty for people such as Fred West, but I'm sure this thread is not the place for that as you all seem quite nice and liberal

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool - sorry - working and don't have time to search it out but I copied from something I posted elsewhere. To the best of my knowledge they were online polls from Loose Women and/or Good Morning Britain.

I would say this thread epitomises trans bashing, especially referring to a trans person as 'a six foot bearded man in a dress' and the whole post is basically scaremongering. I have discussed it at length with many people in RL and everyone agrees it is doing feminism no favours suggesting this is how feminists think:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3108929-a-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf

Just been catching up with the thread.

My MP's Amber Rudd. Not sure what her stance on GRA is. Sod it - I'll contact her anyway, even if she did ignore my last email on the issue.

I've spoken to loads of people in RL, and they all agree there needs to be a third gender neutral space, that when its proven to be safe for women the ones that can will go use it.

But for some reason trans activists arent satisfied with that.

perfectly what is the demographic of people you know in RL and I'll ask again what age bracket are you in and do you have children?

WTAF I'm late 30s, my partner mid 50s we have both discussed it with many people ranging from 20s to 60s as we are both hugely passionate about feminism and all it has achieved.
Yes, we have a daughter.

perfectly presumably speaking to chums at Mermaids. Not really a representative sample.

@perfectly, is it the 6ft bit, the man bit or the dress bit that is the issue?

It's totally possible that a 6ft person could be a trans woman, and be wearing a dress. Is it the use of "man" that's the issue? Would "biologically male" be better, or "male bodied"?

perfectly what do you/they believe the aims of feminism to be?

I would say this thread epitomises trans bashing, especially referring to a trans person as 'a six foot bearded man in a dress

Perfectly, I have been through every page of both this thread, and the one you linked to, and the only person who used that description of a trans person is you:

Camp 1: Nobody born with a penis can be a woman, transgender doesn’t exist, it’s the new self harm, it’s bearded men in dresses, it’s rapists lurking in female toilets, being biologically male and identifying as female is like believing in Father Christmas. Here, have a fucking biscuit.

Please stop making shit up when 10 minutes of searching completely disproves it.

I can supply every mention of the word 'Beard' across the 20 pages (100 messages/page) if you'd like.

Also perfectly what do you/they think feminism has achieved and what do you think it still has to achieve?

pisacake surely you realise the feminism chat board on Mumsnet is also not representative of the majority of women?

Ah yes mentholbreeze I'm still trying to work out what camp I fit into as I wasn't aware there were 3 camps.

Oh FFS Menthol yes you are right the trans bashing post said a six foot man with stubble not a beard! I stand corrected.

I would say this thread epitomises trans bashing, especially referring to a trans person as 'a six foot bearded man in a dress' and the whole post is basically scaremongering

I don't know where this is from, but no one is suggesting that all trans people are six foot tall men in dresses. We are saying that there is a certain subset who is like that. One happens to work in a plant nursery near me in fact ... I do know of at least one man who calls himself 'trans', insists he isn't a man, and who behaves with every imaginable shred of male privilege. He talks over women, is latently violent and very, very scary. I would not want him in an enclosed space near me. There are other TRAs like this too. Those who bashed the women at speakers' corner are like this. Then there is Danielle Muscato and Stefkonee (however her name is spelled). As we've emphasised over and over again we've been co-existing with 'old style' trans for years using an honour system and nothing has gone awry. However, the TRAs have changed the game in multiple ways so that 6 foot tall blokes wearing dresses may soon be able to identify as women and we could not stop them... Thsi is our objection. But I think that has been explained a few times...

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress

This bit? So one post, in a thread with over 2000 messages! Yes, absolutely a hive of transbashing

Of course the post was actually about where things might go if the GRC goes though, given our current experience - that person in that post might not identify as trans at all, or they may do, and that might still be an entirely accurate description (given the biological definition of 'man')

I think the person nailed it who said this was about Consent, not rights.

A woman or girl may well consent to strip off in front of, share a bed, a changing room, an intimate discussion with, or be examined by, a particular man.

She may also consent to any of those things with any woman, on the assumption that the risks are lower and the common experience greater.

But if she is happy to do all of those with women only, not men, then males-identifying-as-women do not have her consent to be there while she is undressed.

Lancelottie I wholeheartedly agree with your last two posts.

Instead of derailing, why not agree amongst yourselves a positive way forward that isn’t going to come across as sensationalist or radical and present it to your MPs so your concerns stand a chance of actually being heard.

As a gay person who campaigned for equal marriage I understand it is frustrating dealing with people unwilling to compromise. The amount of times I have been told I shouldn’t get married because someone’s imaginary friend (ie God) says I shouldn’t is infuriating. I get it, some trans people are infuriating, but without showing respect or compromise the legitimate concern for women will get drowned out by the scaremongering.

I think it must be very frustrating for trans allies, who have been informed of gender critical feminists hatered,
unreasonableness and violence, to come here and find nothing but a willingness to debate among well informed women.

I too am generally a lurker and it was the blatantly willful misrepresentation of what women are saying and attempts to smear them that caused me to dig deeper and peak trans.