Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Fucking bollocks again

Thats not in reply to your post WTAF

As an aside to the bathroom issue - I remember, back in the old straightforward MRA MN days there were tag team sealions where @sealion would become @seali0n in a thread with a little character change... a kind of opposite to sockies that enables a bit of R&R to stay in it for the longhaul...

I always found that the bait that these sea creatures could not resist was the military - they would suddenly get all demanding and specific "Which regiment!?!", etc... very defensive about men in the military... quite marked - it was.

It makes me want to move on to the issue of the relationship between militarism and male violence.... Since as you rightly point out blanche "we are talking about the risks posed by MEN, not transgender people. Not every single individual man, but men as a class.".

"My concern as a woman, and as a feminist, is that feminism is becoming a laughing stock to anyone reading these boards."

You've done it again, perfectly.

Showed your hand too soon.

Damn! I thought I'd found a way to appropriate being a long time radical feminist without having had to of put in any of the hard work!

Feminism mustn't be radical or angry?

I don't know why you would think you weren't a feminist just because some other feminists disagree with you on approaches to some aspects of feminism. Or you could simply consider the feminists here that you disagree with to be wrong/misguided.

Could I ask you to name the rights that you think the feminists here want to deny trans people?

Well popchyk I would say that there might be a better, more military metaphor than 'showing your hand'...

" some have no issue with transsexuals and happy to treat them as women while some consider them threatening and male."

Yet again, despite us repeatedly explaining the nuance of our position, you totally misrepresent it and attack a straw man.

Do I have an issue with transsexuals? No. I am happy for people to present however they want.

Am I prepared to treat them as women? Depends what you mean by "treat". If you mean accord them the courtesy of calling them she in situations where their underlying biology does not matter, then I'm fine with that. If you mean entering the batshit world of pretending that penises can be female, pretending that their male biology does not matter in sport, removing women's rights to, say, request a female medical practitioner for intimate exams, because to do so might hurt the transwoman's feelings, then, no I'm not prepared to "treat" them as female.

Then we have the usual weaselly slide in your position from "treat" to "are". Of course transwomen are biologically male. That's just a fact. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. And the biological facts mean that a transwoman has a physiological advantage over women in a lot of sports, may in many cases still have a penis capable of impregnating women, can't get pregnant and give birth no matter how delusional that transwoman is about basic biology (I'm looking at you, Lily Madigan, and your recent tweet assuring one of your allies that of course you can get pregnant).

Assasinated to be acknowledged as the gender the identify with, to have the correct pronouns used, to be able to play sports, use female facilities if they so wish (and no I am not talking about pisstaking TRAs which everyone defaults to) and to be able to become midwives, carers or whatever profession they wish without being mocked as bearded men in dresses.

To go into a female prison if they committed a crime because there are the correct safeguards in place to protect other women. Nobody is going to get banged up with a male sex offender in the UK. That would be good enough for me.

I have to say that, far from making feminism seem like a laughing stock, these boards have helped me to refine my opinions using objective analysis, research, discussion.

And I don't think that, logically, the views here are all that extreme. Safe spaces exclusively for females because females are provably at high risk of assault by males? The provable fact that it's not possible to change reproductive sex? A cautious approach towards puberty blockers, given their provable side effects? None of this is radical.

to be able to become midwives, carers or whatever profession they wish

Again, straw man. We're not wanting to ban TIMs from any profession. We're wanting women to retain the right to request same sex HCPs.

perfectly we get it you're all about the men, we on the other hand are all about the women, the mind boggles.

Perfectly.

Do you think someone who has trained in a sport as a man, then transirions and competes as a woman might have any physical advantages over natal women?

Do you think a woman should have the right to not be intimately examined by a male bodied, bearded person?

Do you think natal women in prison should be obliged to share facilities with a male bodied person who had committed an offence using their functional penis?

Sure thermostat - I agree there are some reasonable views, they just seem to be drowned out amongst the 'letter to the women who called me a terf' scaremongering and fear. It was that letter that tipped me over the edge from considering it harmless discussion, hence the reason I'm here.

Do you, perfectly consider a woman who voices she feels uncomfortable with males interacting with her when she is vulnerable is simply "mock[ing them] as bearded men in dresses."? ie - she doesn't have a point about being uncomfortable, she just gets her kicks out of being mean and insulting?

When women on here say 'I live in a rural area and I had no idea all this was happening' I think to myself, 'yes, radical trans activism does exist in dark corners of the internet but it's not happening in the proportions that is claimed on Mumsnet.'

I feel as if I'm a moderate feminist.

Why isn't it ok to be angry when women are being threatened and silenced and mocked? At what point is it socially acceptable for a female to express anger? (I'd really like to hear your answer) Rape threats and death threats make me feel angry. Women losing a little more confidence and safety in this world make me very sad and angry. I'm able to manage my emotions and don't feel the need to do anything with those feelings beyond express them verbally. So why is my anger not ok? Am I allowed to be sad if not angry? How about frightened?

I am glad you're still posting but what I've bolded above is fairly infuriating to read. People have repeatedly said on here that the issue really isn't about trans people. I have only had neutral or positive experiences of trans people in real life. Absolutely there aren't that many of them and most just want to live a quiet life. The real issues are women losing their safe spaces and being at much greater risk from dangerous men. The erosion of women has so many repercussions it's unreal. You have been told over and over that this is the case. Some of those men will be transwomen, unfortunately. A greater number will be men exploiting this issue to access women's spaces.

The sports thing is a slightly different issue for me in that it does directly involve trans people. I do NOT want women's sport to suffer as it is doing at present. If you are male, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sport. You pose a physical danger to women. You are stealing a woman's glory, money and success. You will actively turn other women away from sport when it's vital more women are engaged in it. Go and compete in a separate class and have your own achievements. I will celebrate them with you then.

It was that letter that tipped me over the edge from considering it harmless discussion, hence the reason I'm here.

Can I ask where you saw the letter first that drew you here?

Nobody is going to get banged up with a male sex offender in the UK.

Er...

I am questioning whether I am a feminist at all which seems utterly crazy and I wonder if other lurkers are feeling the same.
Thank you for your concern perfectly but - speaking strictly for myself of course - no, not in the slightest.

Perfectly I don't think this board makes a laughing stock of feminism at all. I think it could be the making of (proper) feminism becoming more mainstream than it's ever been.

Even if it were a laughing stock I've always been a big believer in 'what is right isn't always popular and what is popular isn't always right'

I'm happy that what motivates me is safeguarding children and equality for all, if that impacts on what some people view as their 'rights' I really don't care.

It's great how little I give a shit about who'd like me to shut up now I'm in my thirties. I cannot WAIT for how little of a shit I'll give in 10, 20 years and what I'll then be able to do to help woman and children.

" some have no issue with transsexuals and happy to treat them as women while some consider them threatening and male."

Are you kidding?

Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield? Rapist convicted of raping young girls. Just moved from HMP Bronzefield (a women's prison) for sexually harrassing female inmates.

Sorry to be boring- but can I just add a footnote? Radical does not mean extreme in the context of feminism-it's not the end of a continuum where "moderate" is a mid point. It's a specific sort of feminism which thinks, in a nutshell, that it's impossible to modify the current infrastructure to produce equality- we have to make a new one.
Sorry- it's just that people often (quite understandably) misunderstand this. As you were.....

Damn wrong quote - was meant to paste in the bit about "no-one's going to bang up a woman with a male sex offender."

Also not sure what you're referring to as 'that letter'? The first one was a very good piece of writing. The second one I'm pretty sure #peaktransed the whole site!