Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Apologies Guardian I meant this. I could never adhere to this ideology and see it as an attack on ordinary transgender people simply wishing to go about their lives:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3108929-a-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf?pg=17

It's great how little I give a shit about who'd like me to shut up now I'm in my thirties. I cannot WAIT for how little of a shit I'll give in 10, 20 years and what I'll then be able to do to help woman and children.

WTAF yes! I love not caring any more. I also loved the drop off in sexual harassment once I hit my 40s.

BertrandRussell thanks for the reminder re. radical. You're quite right.

I should have used the word 'extreme' in my response to perfectly.

perfectly why did that letter hit a nerve for you? Do you call other women TERF sometimes?

Do you think that the rights of transwomen are more important than the rights of natal women? Not the same importance-more important?

Specifically, do you think the rights of vulnerable natal women are less important thn the rights of transwomen?

Bit confused why you felt the need to comment on this thread after reading another thread

I think it must be an alarming thing if you are part of the 'third wave', 'sex abuse/exploitation -positive', or 'queer' branch from the feminist tree, (branches that decentralise the well-being of women and girls) and to see that so many people are wanting to get back to the roots of the issues, ie - male violence against women and girls, patriarchy, reproduction and sex-based oppression, etc. It must feel like the party is over and the lights have been turned on.

The problem is that all those gender-bending, kinky, subversive explorations under a rather spurious banner of feminism, marching for the 'right' to call oneself a slut, might have been fun, felt, progressive and like a liberation from all the stuffed shirts older, lesbian women , but they didn't actually do anything in real practical terms for women and girls. So here we are.

It is reality time I am afraid.

Bertrand I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.

^Bertrand I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.
^

How do you treat somebody like a woman?

So you think the right of a trans identifying male's right to work as a gynaecologist and be 'treated as a woman' should come above a natal woman's ('ie- the only class of people who need gynaes) right to choose to be examined by a female?

I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.

Good to know, the misogyny is coming through loud and clear, keep it coming for the lurkers. Despite all the reasoned well thought out arguments from all the posters on here it was GF's like you who persuaded me I had to get off the live and let live fence and choose a side. I choose woman, children and the vulnerable every bloody time. I chose feminism.

Actually is this the latest tactic from the FB GC groups? Is this how we're going to #peaktrans the whole country? Nice tactic

"How do you treat somebody like a woman?"

I think it means - when a patient specifically asks for a woman doctor, the hospital includes trans identifying males as well as women, when fulfilling this request.

I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.

It is not a right to re-define a disadvantaged group.

and no I am not talking about pisstaking TRAs which everyone defaults to

How are you going to tell the difference? Legally you cannot distinguish between the piss takers and the genuine ones.

"I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women."

Just de-lurking to point out that, to be accurate this should be:

"I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women and girls rights should come above treating transgender women as women."

I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.

So you don't believe that women's rights to feel and be comfortable and safe come above men's right to do exactly as they please?

How odd.

I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.

Right. FINALLY! Thank you, perfectly. Your position is, at last, clear. You favour eliminating sex-based protections - indeed the recognition of biological sex at all, let alone as an axis of oppression - in favour of gender identity.

Now we know where we are!

"Bertrand I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women."

Thank you. So just be clear, you think that a woman should not be allowed to request that intimate examinations not be carried out by a male bodied, bearded person? (I only mentioned beards because you did.)

Another lurker here and I have to say perfectly it is you and your views and behaviour on here that is making feminism a 'laughing stock', not the clearly expressed, researched and patiently explained views and opinions of the majority of posters on this thread (sorry, too numerous to name check all of you!).

Could you perhaps enlighten me perfectly as to how exactly you define equality? because it sounds more like you are advocating for survival of the strongest/fittest. Whilst you are at it could you also define exactly what a woman is and how you can tell who is and isn't one?

I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women.

OK perfectly, so you believe that natal women's rights (ie safety, privacy, fairness) should not come above men's feelings.

No wonder you are confused about feminism!

And hello to the de-lurkers! Thanks for joining in.

I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women

That's not equal. You may be need to go do some maths. Or sociology. Or history. Or politics. Or biology. Anything!

This is going well.
I just wanted to comment on the paranoia accusation from a few pages back. Perfectly, we have already had RL issues where MRA/ TRAs identified FWR posters and threatened them. For years. It has been discussed over and over again whether it should be a closed board for the safety of women to protect them from violent males. It’s not paranoid when you are actually receiving death threats.

Look, you remind me a bit of me, years ago. I argued with poor bloody dittany and could not grasp just what she was afraid of.

And yet here we are. I’ve eaten all of the hats. I would probably have said she was paranoid too. And I claimed to be a feminist. It just took me a whole lot longer than the smart kids to realize the threat that TRAs pose to the rights of women and girls. It isn’t about being anti-trans in any shape or form. It’s about recognizing that the one ideology is incompatible with the other in terms of protecting the vulnerable.