Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Great, glad you're back, perfectly. There's still loads to talk about. Can we start with when, where and why it became utterly taboo to question transactivist ideology and do you think it's counter productive?

@perfectly

Now you are back from your stressful night of abusive behaviour from your partner, maybe you could cast your eyes over this photo and tell me if you see a man in this photo or just women? Top tip - look closely at the man on the second left within the group of women.

I mean, I know why you have avoided answering the last two times I asked. It is because it is perfectly obvious that a man has infiltrated a women's basketball team. How would you feel as the opposing team being completely outplayed by a colossal man in that team?

Datun

I've heard the 11million retweets on here. I deleted my twitter account a few years ago as didn't want it linked to me professionally. I lurk on twitter now to fact check/follow news stories and my partner has an account with a fairly large following.

I was only aware of the #metoo from on here, the one person I saw do #metoo on Facebook I would strongly suspect is GC but can't be open professionally.

I'm well aware how prevalent sexual harassment/assault is. My kids secondary school is sick to death of hearing from me about their failure to challenge these attitudes to my satisfaction.

I never considered myself a feminist or even gave feminism much thought, I'm amazed to find that what I've always considered basic common sense is actually the radical feminist viewpoint.

"People choose to believe what they want to believe". This seems to be your own trait that you are projecting onto others.

Not me.

I abandon beliefs when a robust body of evidence contradicts them. This leaves me believing stuff I fervently wish was not true, but cannot deny in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Your posts demonstrate exactly why that statement rings true for you though. You've clung to your belief even after it has been shown to be provably untrue, introduced straw men, demanded evidence and proceeded to ignore it, created false equivalences...

I do not believe that any feminist could 'discover' that fake tweet and genuinely think, yes, that sounds believeable, and based on my conversations with feminists I'll ask them in good faith if they support the idea that a feminist pulled down the pants of a 10 year old child. After the lengthy discussions here with us I don't believe you really gave that post credibility, i think you are faking. I don't believe your post to us asking us if we thought it was funny was in good faith. You've been talking to us for hours. Not for a second did you think any of us would approve of that ludicrous tweet.

There is no point engaging with someone who is playing a game. You have been treated with respect and you are not returning it.

I never considered myself a feminist or even gave feminism much thought, I'm amazed to find that what I've always considered basic common sense is actually the radical feminist viewpoint.

Frankly the trans issue has turned a lot of women into feminists. Or ramped up their investment.

It certainly did mine. I had never encountered misogyny like it.

"People choose to believe what they want to believe".
Yes they do. But they are wrong, and part of being a functioning, thinking adult is to constantly check and recheck your beliefs against reality and evidence

Perfectly if you're still here can you just answer what you think of bodily autonomy for woman? What are your views on abortion?

If your partners taken your phone/access to social media away again please get help next time you have access to this. Contact the police. If you're not ready to do that then bright sky is a good app to download until you're ready to do so.

Sparton I honestly cannot get upset about a picture taken five years ago of fully transitioned MTF transsexual playing for a college basketball team in the USA. Granted, she is particularly tall, so I can see why you have used the image for 'impact'. But she has had full gender reassignment surgery - are you saying that transsexuals should not be allowed to compete in sports?

I thought 'genuine' transsexuals weren't the problem?

Taking the leap from this five year old image from the USA to the assertion that in 15 years time boys will be beating the girls on sports day in the UK because any boy will be allowed to declare themselves female (the letter to the woman who called me a TERFs thread) is really quite a leap.

You probably know this already but she's called Gabrielle Ludwig, there's quite a few articles online about her.

www.recordnet.com/article/20121219/A_SPORTS/212190326

Also, apologies if I cannot keep up with all the questions on the thread. As you can imagine it is tricky being outnumbered (and I do have a Christmas shopping to do) but am genuinely finding it interesting and enlightening to have these discussions.

I hope it doesn't come across as though I am 'invading' the feminist board, as I mentioned before I have dipped in and out of here over the years. The more extreme threads earlier this week inspired me to stop lurking and start questioning.

But she has had full gender reassignment surgery - are you saying that transsexuals should not be allowed to compete in sports?

A - I asked what you saw. Man or woman. The fact that you had to go do some research shows you saw a man. Otherwise you would have said 'woman', yes?

B - no. Born men should complete in male sports. Not female sports. As they have an added advantage. Due to being men.

Taking the leap from this five year old image from the USA to the assertion that in 15 years time boys will be beating the girls on sports day in the UK because any boy will be allowed to declare themselves female (the letter to the woman who called me a TERFs thread) is really quite a leap.

Do you consider this a leap because you doubt children will be allowed to self-ID, because you doubt TIMs will be allowed to compete against girls or because you doubt males have any physical advantage over females in sport?

You need to check out the guidance schools are following.

Thanks for the name perfectly I've seen that picture posted on here before and never known how sensationalist it was. Now I've googled Gabrielle Ludwig I'm even more concerned, is she trans age as well as trans sex?

Even more concerned about the impact on woman's sports now, so thanks for bringing that to my attention, I now have another example I can discuss with my MP about how they're going to protect the human rights of transgender people while at the same time preserving woman's sports.

What do unilad/lad bible and the like think of Gabrielle, have you been across to ask?

Perfectly, but don't you find it suspicious that someone in their 50s (I'm in my 50s, well past my prime athletically) transitions and takes up a place on a women's basketball team, playing competitively against 20 year olds? It doesn't even cross your mind that this person might have an unfair advantage, because in sport segregated by sex players of both sexes are "past it" in their early 30s? A person who is taking up a women's scholarship (for which they should be ineligible because they already had a sports scholarship as a male player back in their youth), in a country where sports scholarships are one of the few ways women from poor backgrounds can finance college?

You don't worry about trans cage fighters who break women's orbital sockets (with a history of being absolutely nowhere in the rankings as a male fighter before transition), or trans Aussie football players who break women's legs, or someone who transitions (again, at an age where most athletes are over the hill, and again who was a mediocre male athlete prior to transition) and immediately breaks their country's world record for weightlifting, before coming second in the world championships?

Doesn't it worry you that while most women have a natural testosterone level of 1.5nmol/litre, rising to about 2.5 for women with PCOS, the IOCC limit which trans athletes have to conform to is set at 10 (5 standard deviations above the average female level), the bottom of the male range?

There's not even a nagging suspicion in your mind that something unfair might be going on here?

And here we have it again - the topsy turvy world of the trans ally, where believing in "lady brains" poses no threat to feminism, but acknowledging actual physical biological difference which places women at a material disadvantage in a lot of areas must be denied at all costs. It's bonkers double think - how can (fake) biology matter in brains, while (visibly obvious) biology doesn't matter in the rest of the body, with consequences in sport, in women's vulnerability to male violence?

Why is it a leap to think that if male-bodied people are beating women and girls now, there will be more of them doing so in 10-15 years?

Are you saying that's a good thing, a bad thing, or just an unlikely thing?

(It's already happening, and as I'm sure you know, one UK transwoman elected to stab an official for querying why they had not

supplied testosterone results.)

www.lifezette.com/popzette/the-biggest-new-cheat-professional-women-sports/

perfectly

Goodness sake. This is the problem. You are uninformed. We are not. We are just posting the odd example.

Take Andrea Yarwood. Taken two state titles, he has had absolutely zero modification. No hormones no nothing.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.courant.com/sports/high-schools/hc-hs-cromwell-track-andraya-yearwood-0407-20170406-story,amp.html

Or Lauren Jeska - fell runner. He stabbed an official multiple times in the neck, because he refused to comply with the hormone testing required.

Laurel Hubbard, weightlifter. Just taken silver.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=laurel+hubbard&rlz=1CDGOYI_enGB682GB682&oq=laurel+hubbard&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59j0l2.4483j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=xjOcb9VAyOtG9M:

The roller derby winner. Or the cycling winner. Or the golfer. Or the Australian rugby player who had already broken the limb of a opponent.

Or Fallon Fox, boxer who broke the orbital bone of his female opponent.

Perhaps can give me a list of, say, the top 5 women, identifying as men, who are beating men?

Why shouldn't men compete in women's sports? Are you seriously asking that?

DH is not very fit any more. We're similar ages, identical education, similar nutrition, and I exercise far more than he does. But he's 18 inches taller than I am.

Just as a random question, which of us do you think would be better at basketball?

O the entire Iranian ladies football team. Eight of whom are men.

I mind the bathroom thing. I am glad to have the segregation.

If there is a creep in a bar you want to get away from - where do you retreat? Its always good to be able to ask another woman - even a stranger, - if he has gone and it is safe to re-emerge.

I felt deeply strange in a venue that is part restaurant with a sign on the door that the toilets are 'for everyone'. Inside, it is clearly the former men's with a saloon style swing door boxing in the urinal, with the 3 toilets partitioned with close to 12" gap underneath, and quite low doors, so that a taller man could probably see you inside if he stood close- I felt vulnerable and so did my kids using it. Right outside the toilet stalls is one shared sink. The place was small. I found it intimidating. As I washed my hands a man I didn't know (who was nearly a foot taller than men) stood behind me. All my senses were on high alert. I thought - why is this random bloke standing so close behind me? It reminded me of times when I have been harassed and assaulted, and even pick-pocketed, having a strange man standing in my personal space behind me... In truth, he was probably just waiting to use the sink. But I felt threatened and in danger - at forced close proximity to a strange man in a private space (it was only me and him in there at the time) I also felt so glad I didn't have menstrual blood on my hands because I felt an invasion of privacy of a man standing over me scrutinising what I am doing. Women seem to behave differently in this situation - I am sure it is socialisation.

Afterwards I was complaining about it to my MIL and partner, and then the bloody waiter sent out a different TIF waiter out (who would have passed if it wasn't for the creepy, odd behaviour of the staff) to kind of intimidate/listen in. I am never going there again, never taking my kids there again - I don't give a shit how good the food is.

I hate waiting in the queue with men, I hate knowing men are waiting outside. I hate unisex toilets. They make me feel uncomfortable having no where to get away from men if I choose.

I have other real life experiences I can't be bothered to outline here - and the more significant ones would be more outing. One always does wonder why we are encouraged to prove our IRL situations otherwise be dismissed - it seems like an attempt to out us.

Sigh. Yes, real experience.

I started and ran an LGBT support group for years. It was taken down by one TRA member, who had probably sucked up more support from the group and out of hours by members and leaders giving indivual support than all the other members put together. His reason for blowing the group apart and calling me (the only female leader incidentally, he didnt't pull this shit on the men) appalling names, was that we would not set aside the group rules just for him as he wanted to spam the members mailing list with anti women TRA propaganda several times a week. Not making a specific exemption for him was micro aggression and placing a ban on 'trans positive messaging'. He had a large group of older women who were very protective of him and did the full flying monkeys act to try and bully us into getting his way.

Also in my professional life, I am deeply disturbed by the ableist, sexist, ageist bullshit being sent down by TRA groups (involved in stalking, harassment and violence to two women, one of whom was at speakers corner and one of whom was at the anarchist book fair) with zero knowledge of the field they are advising on, to be implemented unquestioningly that will hurt my service users. This advice is completely at odds with all other government advice and protocols. It's insane.

Has anyone on here got pregnant after using the toilet after a transgender person? Had their women's circle colonised by transgender people? Had a predatory TRA midwife wanting to assault them?

perfectly, please remember that when we are talking about the importance of certain single-sex areas, we are talking about the risks posed by MEN, not transgender people. Not every single individual man, but men as a class.

It really is very important that you understand that.

Slowly catching up on the thread

anlaf love the Christie scene

I LOVE Agatha Christie does that mean I've always been a radical feminist even though I only recently realised?

Thanks for the replies and examples, I guess there is still a lot of confusion as some of you respect and believe that trans people exist and some think it's a fad, some have no issue with transsexuals and happy to treat them as women while some consider them threatening and male.

My concern as a woman, and as a feminist, is that feminism is becoming a laughing stock to anyone reading these boards.

Just when feminism was getting 'popular', getting high profile advocates (Emma Watson etc) it is starting to appear radical and angry. Overall the definition of 'feminist' on here seems to mean you refuse to acknowledge the rights of transgender women as they are not real women which no feminist I know in RL adheres to.

It's not easy being a moderate, mainstream feminist on here. I am questioning whether I am a feminist at all which seems utterly crazy and I wonder if other lurkers are feeling the same.

Oooh i dont know WTAF

Im not sure she is that feministy but i love her books