Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Always coming back to the shared spaces issue.

@neoflex.

I take umbridge when men who rape are included in statistics as women.

I also take umbridge when rapists are put into women's prisons.

If it hadn't been for the above actually happening I'd probably have been disgruntled at the safe spaces issue but not furious.

Then this happened:
Women: we are worried for safe spaces for women and girls
Translobby: you TERf. Die CIS bitch.

So yeah, the policy makers are the ones that are scared to even say that transwomen are not women as the male policy makers will take disciplinary action against anyone in office that voices the above.

It is absolutely not just about safe spaces but the safe spaces issue has focused people's attentions. there are those that refuse to see the issue and want equal rights for everyone, but nobody can say what rights Trans people don't have that they want. And accuses anyone of pointing this out of wanting to erase trans people. It beggars belief that anyone can't see the wood for the trees here. This is being driven by the MRA, pretending to be TRA and their aims are clear - to keep women and girls down.

And the mantra goes on and on and on.

Always coming back to the shared spaces issue.

I would rephrase that as "always coming back to the consent issue".

In a patriarchal society awash with sexual violence, as the UK is, women's rights to withhold the right of males to enter their spaces must be protected. Taking those rights away is taking away our consent.

More particularly, how can we educate our young girls about consent in sexual relationships while simultaneously removing their right to bodily privacy from adolescent males because of thoughts in the male's head? We are now formally teaching our young women that their consent is irrelevant if a male peer wants something.

It's about consent.

The bathroom issue is interesting to me. Because I do not want a shared bathroom space.

I know others think it’s the superficial end of the issue. I completely understand. And it is superficial in a way.

But it’s the most commonly used sex segregated space. It’s the one least likely to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

It feels as though it’s the initial way in which eliminating sex segregation will become acceptable.

It’s also the quickest, easiest way to take the piss, (the piss, not A piss), with very little effort.

Sorry Datun I completely support your right to single sex bathrooms. I also agree it's a consent issue.

Much respect and thanks to all the posters here articulating the issues much better than me!

Morning ladies, I enjoyed the Poirot conspiracy theory too (thanks Anlaf!) To avoid any confusion, it's me perfectlywretched - I am not sock puppeting, my partner de-registered my account last night as I wasn't paying her any attention... So had I to re reg this morning, hence the shortened username. Sorry to be boring - I realise the poirot conspiracy was much more exciting.

There are two lessons I have learnt this morning:

1.	Do not hastily post screen shots from Twitter without looking into the facts properly. I hold my hands up that Tweet is likely to be fake and I feel very foolish for getting railroaded into a 'which camp is being more hateful on Twitter' argument when that's not the reason I was posting. I want my 'mainstream' feminist voice to be heard as I believe in equality for everyone. I also believe 'mainstream' transgender women should not suffer the collateral damage of a minority few TRAs who are behaving appallingly. 

2. Do not believe everything you read on the Internet. If I was fooled by that Tweet last night could it be possible there are some instances you are being fooled as well? The fact the 'conspiracy theories' emerged last night about me being a TRA in disguise after I posted that ill advised Tweet suggests there is a lot of paranoia on here. Could some of the anecdotal 'evidence' you discover in your 'research' also be a load of BS? Has anyone on here got pregnant after using the toilet after a transgender person? Had their women's circle colonised by transgender people? Had a predatory TRA midwife wanting to assault them? Been told in RL (not on a YouTube video) that to not want cock is transphobic? I live in an area with a high proportion of transgender people and I've never experienced any of these things, nor has any woman I know, nor has any woman in the mainstream media. When women on here say 'I live in a rural area and I had no idea all this was happening' I think to myself, 'yes, radical trans activism does exist in dark corners of the internet but it's not happening in the proportions that is claimed on Mumsnet.' I doubt even 1% of the posters on here will ever encounter it in RL.

WTAFisthisshit

People place importance on different things.

But it is definitely in issue of consent. And boundaries.

It’s still unbelievable to me. That women’s boundaries are being challenged, officially, at exactly the same time as the #metoo campaign has kicked off. As MiMi78 has pointed out.

In the same way that Jeremy Corbyn can identify a need for women only train carriages, at exactly same time as supporting a bill that will give any man access to them.

It’s the male blindspot. He would have been told or taken advice on the train carriage thing. It’s not something he truly feels, or knows about. Hence being able to unthinkingly support a law that completely undermines it.

I don't think it's necessarily that women think trans people will perve at or attack them it's the general allowance of any man to pretend to be trans to gain access to female only spaces that bothers me.

I am average person but as a young woman got a lot of street harrassment from men and my sister was perved on in a shower block as a teen so not an abstract concern for me esp as I have pre teen dds.

Datun

I only saw one #metoo on my Facebook and that had one comment on it, a woman saying what about men who have been assaulted.

That pissed me right off.

Welcome back, perfectly! My partner is also forever going around activating and de-activating my social media accounts. I think most people's partners are forever going around doing that. Very common. I bet more than 1% of the posters on here encounter it all the bloody time. Tsk, eh?

Totally agree about the consent issues. And keeping women safe.
But are there more cases of rape murder violence against women in Germany where there are more shared spaces than in the UK?
Are there less in countries like Saudi Arabia where there are less?
I don't have the statistics btw.

I think the UK has a problem with rapey men. Not with men who identify as women.
A lot of trans men and women are just sat at home I imagine eating some beans on toast and having a brew waiting for all this to blow over.

But I don't know that either because I have met one trans person in my life
I was in a gay bar. Actually in their space cause I'm a straight woman born with a vagina.

I've encountered it in real life and I've posted about it here before. In my case it involves a born male individual who retains every ounce of male privilege and who looks and acts male and who talks over women, demands all the space and time, and yet claims to be 'trans'. There are more details, but I can't post them here. I've encountered similar in my travels as well.

Perfectly - what is frustrating me right now is that you are firing grapeshot; a scattered attack in which you mount many arguments but refute few. Posters come back in response to your posts, but by then you have moved on to a new topic and you don't engage. Furthermore, if we had a 'bingo card' for your arguments we'd find them all covered. The 'you don't know any nasty TRAs in real life' has been thrown out at us time and time again. It's not new.

KERALA1 I'm pretty sure that's what at least 80% of the population think. It's the common sense view (and also the radical feminist POV which I only realised because of these boards). Common sense will prevail but not before damage has been done.

perfectly

Sigh. Yes people are encountering it in real life.

Many, many feminists with whom I am personally in touch, have been doxxed and threatened. Have restraining orders.

I belong to many feminist websites. The sorts of things that get posted on here are massively diluted to be honest.

I tend to not do it as much as I could, precisely because I do not wish to be accused of sensationalism.

I was at speakers corner. I didn’t imagine Maria Mac being punched in the face.

Mumsnet is the place where people talk. It is not the place where people encounter radical transactivists.

I suggest you join some feminist websites where this issue is on the radar. Unfortunately many of them have had to become convert due to threats.

I personally, have seen at least five shut down.

Welcome back Perfect. I will hold my hands up and say I have been caught out by troll accounts - which is why I try to check provenances, and fact check, and check against other independent sources of information. (And I make this point to both sides - I've been on another thread this morning pointing out that the linked trans-critical video from the "American College of Paediatricians" isn't in fact from some august professional body of experts, but is simply a pressure group of doctors who happen to share a right-wing, religiously conservative ideology - and are, in the grand scheme of things, mostly against women's rights, particularly abortion rights.)

Good point LangCleg I believe perfectly can get some good advice on the relationship boards if her partner is controlling her social media accounts, isn't that coercive control?

I think the UK has a problem with rapey men. Not with men who identify as women

Oh dear.

Yes the UK has a problem with rapists. And these rapists are identifying as women to get into women's prisons. These rapes are being recorded as 'women rapist'. When as we all know, women cannot rape as they do not have a penis.

If you are ok with this then crack on. I am not.

If you are not ok with that, even voicing that makes you a TERF.

my partner de-registered my account last night as I wasn't paying her any attention.

That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship.

I doubt even 1% of the posters on here will ever encounter it in RL.

On a serious note.

I count three trans people in my friendship circle, all of whom oppose the Radical Trans Agenda (if we can call it that).

I know a teenage girl hounded off social media with mental health in crisis for daring to assert same-sex attraction boundaries.

I know a lesbian infuriated by the abundance of ladypeen on lesbian dating sites.

I know members of a women's book group that closed due to an aggressive, domineering TIM.

I live miles away from any main urban centre.

How's that?

WTAFisthisshit

I believe it was retweeted 11 million times? It was obviously more prevalent on Twitter than Facebook, I guess.

You only have to look at the regular threads on here to see quite how insidious sexual harassment is, though. It’s ludicrous when people start trying to flip it. Annoys me too.

I've been on another thread this morning pointing out that the linked trans-critical video from the "American College of Paediatricians" isn't in fact from some august professional body of experts, but is simply a pressure group of doctors who happen to share a right-wing, religiously conservative ideology - and are, in the grand scheme of things, mostly against women's rights, particularly abortion rights

I've been conned by that bunch even after warning someone else against them. It's the bloody acronym. It sounds the same as more legitimate ones.

Lang my point exactly, people choose to believe what they want to believe. I am sure me being a TRA in disguise is a lot more comfortable for you so carry on believing it.

Oh God, yes. My DH is always deregistering my mumsnet account (how he knows actually how to do that I'll never know). It is much more common than the 1% stated by Lang.

Frightening.

I'll bet she planted that deleted photoshopped fake Tweet for you to find also.

Hang on, we'll get Poirot back on the case.

perfectly

I don’t think you realise how you come across, maybe?

You keep making objections, to which people reply. With evidence. And then you move onto another objection.

Now you’re saying that everyone is paranoid.

You’re damn right. Transactivists infiltrate everywhere. The groups I’m in are closed to new members, for that very reason.

I, personally, in real time, have watched, on my phone, a concerted campaign unfold online to stop women speaking.

Lang my point exactly, people choose to believe what they want to believe. I am sure me being a TRA in disguise is a lot more comfortable for you so carry on believing it.

I have no opinion on whether or not you are a TRA in disguise.

I do think you are deliberately sea lioning this board with disingenuous posts. Your motives, however, remain your own. But you know - it's a free country and if it's making you happy, I think you should carry on! I'm sure everyone else feels the same.

(And although I was being sarcastic in the above post about partners and social media - if your partner did actually de-activate your account here, please take care. Coercive control is no joke. And that is not me being snarky.)

It's not much of a disguise, perfectly. People think you're a TRA because your posts have all the standard TRA content (I think Datun already covered this, or possibly Barracker) delivered in the standard TRA style (sea lioning, straw man, appeals to kindness, utter obliviousness of impact on women). I don't think that people generally call themselves TRAs - it's not any kind of cohesive movement that you have to sign up for - for starters, it's far too narcissistic to be meaningfully collective. Neither is being trans a pre-requisite - it attracts a fearful amount of women, which I find quite boggling.