Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Was Helen the one who reminded us that women who were immediately postpartum ought to focus their empathy on the dude next to their hospital beds?

Yes that was Helen

Nah, don't report these people. Then they'll complain elsewhere that they are being gagged and play the victim without hard evidence to the contrary.

Let everything stand, unless it is something really offensive.

If you look at this board over the last couple of years, you'll see very few deletions compared to AIBU or Chat. That's all to the good; it means other people cannot rewrite history.

Yes, that's Helen.

The false flag threads I've reported have been by people purporting to be gender critical but posting ridiculously inflammatory nonsense (not as bad as that screenshotted tweet - they're usually not that stupid - they tend to post as if coming from a Daily Mail frother position and see if they can draw people into agreeing with them). They tend not to post them in feminism, they go for AIBU.

Interestingly, transactivists tend to block people who disagree, on Twitter and Facebook. The ‘blocked terf’ list is groaning under the weight of itself.

Whereas on here, no-one is in a position to block anyone. Unless it’s MNHQ for personal attacks.

So expecting some juicy material from feminists doesn’t happen on Twitter because they are blocked. And doesn’t happen on here because we don’t supply it. Not out of any deliberate attempt to avoid incrimination, but because it’s completely unnecessary.

It’s a piece of piss finding inflammatory remarks from TRAs online.

Given that this is meant to be the most transphobic forum evah, you’d think they could find something.

But no.

I've wondered about an influx of new posters over the past few days.

I don't think it's femibists vs trans women.

I think it is feminists (who if in a similar position to me respect trans women and would defend their rights to safe spaces and to challenge discriminatiom) vs radical trans activists (who wish to silence womanhood, lie abour basic biology and arent happy with offering safe trans spaces because they want self identifying men to invade women's spaces)

Trans? I dont always get it but ill supporr your right to be free of discrimination etc
Trans activists who want to invade womanhood and mamsplain female experiences to me? You can sod off

I agree with BertrandRussell that we should continue to treat Perfectly as genuine. A quick google of 'hateful Terf tweet' or whatever would have bought that picture up.

I don't want lurkers with perfectly's views to fear posting here in case they get troll hunted. Even if it means that we engage with the occasional troll it doesn't matter. Repeating the arguments calmly is persuasive.

What a lucky twitter find perfectly had!

I mean, what are the odds?

They were doing such amazing sea lioning too, and then just over reached and blew it, and Anlaf/Miss Marple was there to raise a supercilious eyebrow. Brilliant. So humourless, just like perfectly said.

My favourite trans tweet ever. This is what we are up against.

Translogic.

You evil women, why are you looking after your own needs and rights - what about the menz? (????).

There is no space for compromise between, "you can't come in" and "i must come in". There physically isn't any space for compromise, may be "you can come in Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday"? Or how about "you can come in after 9 and before 3:30"

I was a lurker too and all these threads have been very helpful. Sorry to use the old cliche but we just need to keep calm and carry on, eventually they will see that we are not anti trans but pro women.

That relatively very tame post from Venice Allen about Lily Madigan is being posted everywhere repeatedly as evidence of the 'transphobic hate speech' that Lily and others are up against. Honestly, if that's the only thing they can cite as evidence, they don't have much to worry about.

Have also been thinking about all the talk of suicide from trans activists, from the questionable statistics about suicide rates amongst young trans people, to people like Adrie whatshisname saying he might commit suicide and if he does it will all be the fault of the 'TERFs'.

Hmmmmmm, threatening suicide because a woman won't do what you want her to do - it's a rather 'male' thing to do isn't it?

perfectly your posts are disingenuous.

Repeatedly telling posters off for words they didn't say and attitudes they don't have.
No matter how you try to twist it, natal women are not the aggressors.

I would not be part of any attacking movement against any group. This is a defense of women's and girls (sometimes limited) freedoms.

I personally want no battle, and I want no 'sides'. As has been repeatedly explained, many women and trans people started as instinctive allies, and have then watched in horror at the consequences to women as they unfold.

Seems to be you, who wants to twist thoughtful posts and ignore all points, who is determined to push for sides.

I find it surprising that, as a feminist, if it came to sides your instinct is to stand against natal women and girls?

Hmmmmmm, threatening suicide because a woman won't do what you want her to do - it's a rather 'male' thing to do isn't it?

You mean a tactic of male abusers. Yes indeed it is. I might start posting links to the tactics abusers use to control women. It is absolutely mirroring them all.

SpartonDregs

The daftest comment I ever saw was that women are not oppressed because of their biology, it’s got nothing to do with that. It’s because they’re women.

I've read so many of these threads and there's always a lot of anger. From both sides.
Always coming back to the shared spaces issue.
If we just take trans out of it for a moment and think about shared spaces...
There are some countries with many more shared spaces than the UK. Where I live there are unisex changing rooms in public and private pools, standard. There are unisex toilets in bars. In saunas its 90% of time compulsory to be naked, and shared with both sexes.
Other countries there is much more gender segregation. Women don't mix with men outside of their family. Schooling is completely separate.
So what we are experiencing is a shift in how we view these spaces. There is always a "culprit" when these shifts happen. Same with the impact of immigration when societies change as a result.
Yes there are some haters on the Internet spewing anti feminist rubbish. But really the shift lies with the policy makers. They are the people to go after if you are unhappy with the changes.

"Always coming back to the shared spaces issue."

Hmm, does it? In my opinion, it is often dragged back to that because all the other issues are too nuanced and difficult to be dismissed with "OMG- just lock the cubicle door"

Addressing the other issues would require engagement and difficult conversations. Which, sadly, don't seem to be happening.

But really the shift lies with the policy makers.

We are Neoflex. But it requires debate and getting more people to understand what’s going on. Hence talking about it.

The original objections to Maria Miller‘s report were dismissed out of hand. She said they came from women ‘purporting to be feminists’.

When in reality, most women, whether feminist or not, don’t want this.

I understand different cultures have different attitudes. But what ought to determine it is how that particular culture views women.

It’s quite evident that the people demanding entry to women’s spaces do not behave in a way that would make women feel comfortable should they be there.

Neoflex
I think there is definitely an argument there about having unisex spaces and I am all for the desxualisation of the naked body, as is the norm in the countries you mention.
However, that is not the argument here. This is about keeping sex segregation, while allowing men to self identify into it. And your argument doesn’t address spaces like prisons or rape crisis centres, which afaik are sex segregated in the countries you are talking about.

Neoflex I am definitely going after the policy makers, the who's pissing where is the least of the worries.

I am far more concerned about vulnerable woman in prisons, safeguarding for children and vulnerable adults being weakened, clash with other protected characteristics religion/sex/sexuality etc, etc, etc.

Neoflex, I too would be up for more shared spaces if men could behave themselves (which they often don't in my culture) and the desexualisation of the body (which is far from the case in my culture). But it's about women's right to choose what happens to them.

So an individual woman should have the right to a single sex changing environment if she chooses, not be forced into a mixed one. A woman should have the right to a same-sex medical practitioner for an intimate exam (incidently I don't care - I'm personally quite comfortable with male doctors and nurses - but I do not have the right to make decisions for other women on the basis of my feelings about my body.) A woman who has been imprisoned (again, in my culture the majority of women in prison are there for property crimes, not violent crimes) should not be forced to share cell or shower space with a male-bodied individual (who, if the stats are anything to go by, may well be someone who has been convicted of a sexual offence against women).

It absolutely baffles me about how you can have acknowledgment about how insidious and common Male harassment and violence is, in one breath from the government and media darlings, I.e the #metoo campaign.
Then have a massive campaign to let the very same men have easier access to women's safe spaces. . And present it as progression and somehow get the same women to agree with it. Absolutely bonkers.