Janice Turner again in The Times about lesbians

[busyboysmum]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

This woman is a powerhouse.

Placemarking to read later.

The issue of AGP is surely important. I've never used it in any arguments though because it splits the issue. I can't say well okay, but only for the nice, non-fetish transgender people. It's important to consistently send out the message that it's not okay for any man to access women's spaces.

What happened with Zucker?

This latest article is brilliant. Thank goodness they're covering it sensibly. Learning about AGP on here has been eye-opening. It makes so much sense. It definitely needs to be talked about much more.

I can't say well okay, but only for the nice, non-fetish transgender people.

Very much so. This was not a problem until transexual people were hijacked by the non gender dysphoric trans community which massively includes APG.

I wrote to my MP pointing out that a quick google turns up massive amounts of porn around APG particularly sissification which involves men getting off on the humiliation of wearing womens clothes (! lovely positive gender representation there) and basically being used, abused, degrated and worse. There's APG victorian literature around ffs. It isn't deniable, particularly when there are forums of guys self identifying as AGP.

I don't get this 'its all about liberated self identification but ONLY the identities that are pre approved and not inconvenient to the narrative ' Authoritarianism in liberal clothing.

Zucker was fired after Toronto brought in affirmation only policies. Although Zucker did recommend transistion for some children, he also advocated methods for helping children reconcile with their natal sex.
nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

AssignedPerfectAtBirth.

You mean the explanation of it? You need to look up Ray Blanchards typology.

TRAs tried to debunk it. So I also looked up the debunking. It wasn’t debunked. They had a couple of issues, but when you drilled through, they weren’t significant (in terms of women not wanting men fetishising their biology in their spaces).

Also google Michael Bailey who wrote The man who would be Queen. TRAs went ballistic. And attacked him relentlessly. Alice Dreger is a good read as she looked into it.

Also Anne Lawrence, who self identifies as AGP wrote about ‘becoming what we love‘.

Ironically, I was directed to all of these through the shouting of TRAs denying the existence of AGP.

Miranda Yardley, a transwoman also writes about it on her blog.

Further, here in the USA, lots of trans women work in STEM; they are basically running Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc

This, in the article AssignedPerfectatbirth refers to, makes a lot of sense to me. I used to work with men in a STEM environment in the early 90s (in clerical support - did a degree in biological sciences). I also hung out with a lot of engineers at university at times.

There was a view that if you did Maths and Physics, then you could then do any science. Whilst Maths and Physics are probably at the centre of understanding science, and good building blocks, most of them took it to mean that they did not have to study subjects such as biology (which is for girls who don't understand physics) because they would intuitively know from their understanding of Maths and Physics. I remember having a long argument with one individual who would not be told that the plural of virus is not viri, because he had unilaterally decided that logically it should be - he was putting this in a work document. Biological method of theory, hypothesis, test hypothesis, conclusions, redo theory/reformulate hypothesis, test etc passes them by as they do theory, suck it and see - yay! does what we want - go for it - sort the details later.

I have wondered over the pick and mix agenda of the trans lobby, and how they use a bit of successful campaigns for various other groups (eg, hanging onto the LGB and saying that the same discrimination applies as to gay marriage, the 'brain wired differently' and early intervention approach of ASD groups, using intersex conditions to verify their condition, etc and also using cotton ceiling from the glass ceiling of feminists but not publicising that one quite so much ) They have harnessed groups like stonewall, mothers of dysphoric/confused teens, forums for teens. They explain things as 'like x, y or z' rather than what they are.

Anyway - it is that arrogance I see and lack of insight. This sort of attitude was widespread at the time and the people are probably of the age where they have high flying jobs in the big organisations that have grown up over the last 30 years, are super interconnected thanks to the social media they have worked on and the creators of game theory, nudging etc. They are just using what they have learned to get what they want. It is sort of like running a big computer game.

The GRA stuff seems to be piggy backing on the idea that gender neutral is a good thing. This does not work with the fixed stereotypes used for transing children. Janice's article is good for this.

There was a view that if you did Maths and Physics, then you could then do any science. Whilst Maths and Physics are probably at the centre of understanding science, and good building blocks, most of them took it to mean that they did not have to study subjects such as biology (which is for girls who don't understand physics) because they would intuitively know from their understanding of Maths and Physics. I remember having a long argument with one individual who would not be told that the plural of virus is not viri, because he had unilaterally decided that logically it should be - he was putting this in a work document. Biological method of theory, hypothesis, test hypothesis, conclusions, redo theory/reformulate hypothesis, test etc passes them by as they do theory, suck it and see - yay! does what we want - go for it - sort the details later.

I'm a biologist and I've come across this as well, so tedious. Actually, not trans-related but in my experience, fervently creationist "scientists" are almost always people (men mostly) who have some sort of engineering background rather than a biology or chemistry degree.

See the Times today for an article about a state school teacher who has been suspended for accidentally misgendering a pupil.

Is that the same one in Lily's blog

Hi OP,

We've just removed a few posts which were reported for being in breach of copyright law as they were copied from a paywalled site - it's fine to link to the article, but we're afraid we don't allow folks to copy and paste large chunks of text in this way.

If you have any problems at all, please do report in or mail us at: [email protected].

Thanks

Is it okay to put a link to the article with a share token?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8?shareToken=19d4331ca9cd49841fab6e0f0bc0dd36

Terrylene that's a really helpful insight for a non-scientist like me. Thank you.

fruitlovingmonkey suspended? There are so many problems with recruitment and retention in state schools. How can this sort of thing be a priority? Poor teacher.

The gist is that he said "well done girls" to a girl and ftt. He then apologised. He was still suspended.
Afterwards he said he didn't think it was unreasonable to call a child a girl when they were born a girl. He also talked about gender fluidity clashing with his religious beliefs.

The teacher did a 'car crash' interview on This Morning. Awful in so many ways.
It seems as if this was not a single error but there were a number of incidents and he had been 'taking a position' re a transgender child from a religious background. Well, just as I decry the transactivists imposing their views on children and adolescents with no regard for their safety and wellbeing, schools are also not the place for teachers to 'let slip' their personal views.
Always at the centre of this is a vulnerable child who needs protecting, not just from biased pressure groups but also from those who disapprove.

Re: Datun's point that the MSM hasn't mentioned autogynophilia yet - I wonder if that Times leader wasn't obliquely referencing it, with the quote from the Marquis de Sade: 'I assumed that everything must yield to me, that the entire universe had to flatter my whims.'

OK, maybe that's reaching, but I still thought it significant that they drew a direct parallel between the trans rights movement and de Sade, whose political philosophy was predicated on men having the right to transgress every possible sexual boundary.

Gallus Mag (of Gendertrender) has said that the trans movement is ultimately a male sexual rights movement, and I think we are seeing this more and more explicitly: the Topshop thing wasn't even about a man who felt he was a 'woman' - it was about a man who didn't claim to be a woman wanting access spaces where women and girls will be in a state of undress. That same man appears to sexualise female children - he dressed up as a pornified version of a 15-year-old girl on Halloween and posed in the children's section of a bookstore. They are getting bolder about rubbing their sexual fetishes (including pedophilia) in our faces and doing it all under the guise of 'civil rights'.

So yes, autogynophilia does urgently need to be talked about, and pointed out, as much as possible, for the simple reason that it's not possible to understand the current trans movement without understanding AGP.

So yes, autogynophilia does urgently need to be talked about, and pointed out, as much as possible, for the simple reason that it's not possible to understand the current trans movement without understanding AGP.

I agree. The more outlandish part of the ideology is a direct result of AGP.

The assertion that sex is socially constructed. The ‘cis-privilege’ of things that happen to woman because of her biology, however negative (miscarriage, abortion). The neutralising of things that happen specifically to women, like calling it chest feeding and pregnant person.

These are all things that are done by men, who fetishise and are consumed by the idea of themselves as a woman. They need to take the ‘reality of being a woman’ part out if the globally recognised narrative. So they can shoehorn their identity into ‘womanhood’ and get the narrative to apply to them.

This isn’t only about men’s need to dominate. It’s also these men’s specific need to re-write everything to do with women so that it can apply to them. See how they talk about transitioning at age 51, and starting their ‘female puberty’. Or talking about how the hormones they are on give them period pains.

And anything quite obviously outside of any possible experience that they can pretend to have (abortion, breastfeeding) needs minimising, diminishing and eventually neutralising so that the word woman has no part of it.

You don't hear a lot about menopause (not that I wish to - it might be a step beyond.......)

It’s also these men’s specific need to re-write everything to do with women so that it can apply to them. See how they talk about transitioning at age 51, and starting their ‘female puberty’. Or talking about how the hormones they are on give them period pains.

Agree with this. This is also an excuse for wearing hideous overly sexualised clothes - because they say they are like teenage girls experimenting with looks. Except the experience of a teenage girl in revealing clothes is pretty much the opposite of a 51 year old man in revealing clothes. They want the attention that men pay to teenage girls (even if they are attracted to women) in revealing clothes, attention that girls and women (for the most part) don't want at all.

This is a difficult topic to raise in mainstream press but it is very important for understanding the motivation of these people.

fervently creationist "scientists" are almost always people (men mostly) who have some sort of engineering background rather than a biology or chemistry degree.
Yep I have seen this too. I don't think maths/comp sci needs the same understanding of the philosophy of science and the scientific method as the softer sciences like biology and psychology.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/13/gender-fad-will-pass-important-getting-without-permanent-damage/

The telegraph have an article. It is behind a paywall, but you still get to read the comments.

It is written by a man, so probably not much on twitter (3 comments to date, 2 of which are invisible).

The Telegraph article is written by Tim Stanley. He is a colossal arse and a studiously ignorant and prejudiced misogynist. Honestly, it really isn't worth the bother.

Now is the time to be extremely careful of bear traps like sharing the self-serving output of people like Tim Stanley.

DonkeySkin that is an interesting reading of the de Sade quote, which sat oddly with me when I first read the article. I have just read this again and I think the quote does suggest a dark undertone to the transition lobbyists. What that dark undertone is, is not clear. But you don’t even have to understand AGP to recognise that the female sex (of all ages) are being thrown to the wolves. I think the quote speaks to everyone involved, aside from teenage girls, who I would see as those suffering from the ideology, rather as I would see anorexic girls as sufferers of social pressures.

Although that interpretation denies young women agency in the matter, agency is not power and the power is held by those facilitating this madness.