Janice Turner again in The Times about lesbians

[busyboysmum]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

This woman is a powerhouse.

Itsallgoingtobefine It's a hard thing to get your head around but bisexuality isn't necessarily 50/50. No one would pretend that the majority of teenage girls don't have "girl crushes" and wouldn't on some level even an innocent girl crush show at least some level of romantic attraction to the same sex?

And on the basis of that you assert most people aren't 100% hetero or homosexual?

I think you are confusing wanting to be/look like their idol with being sexually attracted to them.

I posted about Marsha Johnson here. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3075192-R4-Today-programme-have-an-item-on-later-about-children-and-gender-dysphoria?pg=5

I don’t think we should be retrospectively transing anyone

I completely agree. I find it somewhat ironic that a group of people who are so insistent that gender identity is such an important personal thing, and that you must never make assumptions about peoples gender, make such huge assumptions about historical / cultural gender.

Or indeed anyone who doesn’t go round shouting their gender identity or sexuality from the rooftops, putting us all into the cis box

No one would pretend that the majority of teenage girls don't have "girl crushes" and wouldn't on some level even an innocent girl crush show at least some level of romantic attraction to the same sex?

Good Lord. This, in old money, is called a pash. It doesn’t make you sexually attracted to women. Nor does it make you lesbian. Nor is it the majority of teenagers.

This insistence that every tiny little thing is labelled and turned into an identity that must be respected is nonsense.

If someone is a lesbian who sleeps with men, I’m not respecting their ‘identity’ of lesbian. I’m really not. Because it’s just changing the meaning of words. Something that is neither deserving of respect not acceptable.

Neither is there such thing as a lesbian who is a man.

And saying, or thinking those things does not constitute abuse of any description.

It's interesting that a 28 year old woman with 2 kids is routinely denied an operation to have her tubes tied when she is adamant she wants no more children, but a 15 year old can be given life altering drugs to stop becoming a woman at all. A grown woman who has been through child birth and parenthood is assumed not to know her own mind, but a child who is probably a lesbian is?
With any major social change I must wonder who is benefitting? And I don't know the answer to that.

With any major social change I must wonder who is benefitting?

Transing kids who would likely otherwise be gay, is simply gay eugenics. Anyone who supports it is homophobic. Homophobes benefit from this. As there will be near an entire generation of gay kids who are 'transed' and thus, less/no gay people.

15 year old can be given life altering drugs to stop becoming a woman

This is a bit off-topic and I am not a biologist, but I imagine that puberty is more complicated than just growing some bits. I'm really interested to know what the actual physical impact blocking puberty has, especially on the brain.

Also, I think someone mentioned earlier that most TIFs are lesbians? I think there is also a fair proportion of autistic girls and sexually abused girls in there too.

Transing kids who would likely otherwise be gay, is simply gay eugenics

Another "benefit" to transing kids is that it "proves" that transgenderism is innate from birth which gives all those late transitioning autogynephiles legitimacy.

Thank you Grpxox no time to chat further tonight but I really do appreciate you participating in a calm, civil chat where both sides of the discussion are able to be shared and listened to, that's very refreshingly rare.

No one would pretend that the majority of teenage girls don't have "girl crushes" and wouldn't on some level even an innocent girl crush show at least some level of romantic attraction to the same sex?

Massive clutching at straws there!
Do most teenage girls have crushes on girls? I call bullshit

This, in old money, is called a pash. It doesn’t make you sexually attracted to women

Me aged 16 and Stevie Nicks. I wanted to be her, not sleep with her.

Let's explore the idea that those on puberty blockers choose to then transition. It is argued by transactivists that puberty blockers simply give them the time to consider their options. It's a benign option that is caring about these young people.

It is an indisputable fact that virtually all of these children (almost 100%) go on to transition.

Transactivists claim that these children are choosing their true identity.

On the other hand, it is an indisputable fact that for those that don't take puberty blockers, 80% (?is that right?) go on to become healthy, well-adjusted gay or lesbian adults. Many gay and lesbian adults say that they may have transitioned as teenagers in the current environment.

Transactivists say that this shows those who don't take puberty blockers weren't True Trans. Overwhelmingly.

However, and this is the question I'd like to ask, how do we define between those who choose to take blockers and those who don't?

Surely it is down to the parents, as the parents decide on permission or not. So the determinant of whether you grow up choosing trans is whether your parent allows you to take puberty blockers.

Parent allows blockers = a lifetime of sterilisation and medication (almost 100% guaranteed)

Parent refuses blockers = likely grow up gay or lesbian.

I would also like to ask those who argue all trans identifying teenagers should be given blockers: Do you agree that all trans people should be sterilised, and not have their own biological children?

Because that is the logical consequence of arguing for puberty blockers for everyone.

This insistence that every tiny little thing is labelled and turned into an identity that must be respected is nonsense.
This.
In my friendship group in my teens, there was an easy toing and froing of romantic and sexual relationships, between boys and girls, boys and boys and girls and girls. Because it was nice and we were friends. We weren't particularly concerned about attaching any special label or significance to our choice of partner. When I encounter this insistence on and fascination with identity labelling I find it odd. Missing the point of human connection. Intellectual as opposed to lived experience.

Missing the point of human connection

It's not about human connection though, its about being more special than every one else.

The throwaway comment of "I'll adopt" annoys me. Not just because adoption is a long and difficult process.
With restrictions on abortion in the US and parts of the UK, women's reproductive choices are being limited. We could be moving towards a situation where young, poor or vulnerable women are forced into birth to supply babies for the hoards of infertile trans people.

Gendertrender have done a piece about Janice’s article.

The comments are eye-opening. Gallus Meg who runs the site is a lesbian, and very many posters are also lesbians.

Some of the comments are fascinating. The way the issue is currently being talked about in the UK, apparently far exceeds the way it was, or is, questioned in the US.

They have also included a screenshot from Mermaids which is very telling.

Collectively, the women give a real insight into how lesbians are treated and in particular butch lesbians. Anyone who can read cannot fail to come to the conclusion that this is indeed gay eugenics.

As ever, the commenting is well worth a read. The women are erudite and forensically knowledgeable.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/11/11/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy/#comments

This is one of the comments from that article Datun. wow

=============

We have several trans billionaires here in the USA, and I think they call the shots… since that’s what billionaires do. I don’t think the UK has as many?

The USA breeds billionaires as a matter of course. Its one of our major cash crops.

Further, here in the USA, lots of trans women work in STEM; they are basically running Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Ask Gallus about it; argue with them and they will lock you out of your own social media accounts. They play very dirty; baiting women into arguing and then getting them banned, is their strategy. I was banned on Twitter for 48 hrs simply for making a smart-ass comment to one that was arguing with me, i.e. “if you are trans, why are you obviously trying to convince me of your manhood with this behavior?” And BOOM that was it… you can harass women with horrible sexist language and endless dick pics on Twitter, but don’t ever imply one of them was ever a man.

See #facebookdykeban which was an organized take-down of hundreds of lesbians on facebook. If Greta Christina and a few other high-profile activists had not complained? We might not have heard about it at all.

USA seems paralyzed with fear over this subject.. and now the Democratic party (in total fucked-up disarray) actually has some trans politicians who WON RACES this past week, and this will consolidate transgender power in the Democratic party. In other words, there doesn’t seem to be any place for gender-critical people to regroup, discuss and strategize; the leftists and liberals are all onboard with the trans (and don’t forget the presence of the omniscient billionaires; lots of these activists have their hands out too; I am sure they contributed privately and heavily to these election campaigns) … and the Republicans are devoutly anti-woman.

It will be up to us on a one-to-one level. I have started talking to political women privately and personally and getting their honest opinions; and you can probably figure out what lots of the these opinions are. We will have to organize covertly, as we did during the Reagan era.

But you are absolutely right–nobody is complaining in the USA like they are in the UK… and I think these are some of the reasons.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth

I know. Very, very chilling. It’s common knowledge that there are a lot of TIMS working in IT. At every level.

Anyone who has worked in a company where the culture is formed from the top down, can easily see how the ideology could permeate across the board.

I found it fascinating that there is an impression that the Brits are more bullish about this issue.

I think we are more bullish. And I think the threads on here are contributing heavily to the debate.

To be fair, US politics is so polarised now that the voters seem to view all issues as partisan, I read a survey the other day which said that 70+ % of degree educated Democrats believed in the 'assigned' gender at birth BS

On the upside, there is now an active #PeakOwenJones hashtag

Yes Datun, I recently tried to define trans-identified male on Urban Dictionary. Urban Dictionary is full of horrifically racist and sexist definitions, as a quick browse around will show.

The definition for trans-identified male, however is standard transactivist fodder. www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trans-identified+male

My definition? Rejected by the community.

I think we are more bullish.

British stubbornness and a tendency, under some circumstances, to kick against being told what to think, is a blessing and a curse.

Today's Leading Article in the Times, not fully read it yet because I need to get to work but it seems very much in support of JT.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transition-period-m9lm0mnbp?shareToken=18d02572dfe20a531078826528d8b168

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transition-period-m9lm0mnbp

V much in support of JT

Hallelujah, if that leader is not a call to arms (metaphorically speaking, of course), I do not know what is. It is calling on everyone with a duty of care to stop being scared and speak up. It is a leading national newspaper. It is the leading article. Let’s hope people start to listen and staff at the Times keep the courage of their convictions.

I thought JT’s article was well-researched and sensitive and was appalled at the vitriol on Twitter. I am glad she has the backing of the newspaper as a whole.