Janice Turner again in The Times about lesbians

[busyboysmum]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

This woman is a powerhouse.

Can you honestly imagine trying to navigate life as a petite, 5'4" transgender man? My heart breaks at the thought of what a hard time someone like that would go through. She's been so betrayed.

This 'I'll adopt.' It's hard enough for people with no major issues in their lives. Are people who've suffered gender dysphoria significant enough they've had surgery ever going to be considered as adoptive parents? Maybe I don't know enough about adoption but it seems so unlikely.

I was so determined I had it all figured out at 14. I knew who I was and what I wanted. Even between being 25 and 35 I've changed so drastically.

Absolutely right, Copperkettles. She's in a position where she'll never fit in comfortably with either groups of men or groups of women. She'll find it hard to find sexual partners. She'll never be able to parent a child biologically - neither mother it nor father it. She'll never experience orgasm. This is extreme cruelty - why would any medical professional even countenance doing this to someone so young? What happened to "First do no harm"?

And why is it that anyone who points this out is now lambasted as some kind of bigot? How did we get to the stage where performing extreme surgery on adolescents is progressive, and saying "this really isn't a great idea" is reactionary and illiberal?

Personally, I find the article disgusting. Referring to Alex as she and her throughout the text (without his permission!) is horrible. Personally I think to follow up an article about Alex who is an adult with a story about a teenager who made a mistake and has realised they aren't transgender is horrible as it almost infers that Alex is wrong as well. So many teenagers experiment with their sexuality and we always have, if anything we are lucky we live in a time now where they can experiment with their gender expression as well. My DH is transgender, and believe me it is not nearly as easy to physically transition as this article has made it seem.

I also think it's disgusting the way she says all lesbians want to be men now and that's what it is. As someone who did once upon a time call myself a lesbian and have many friends who still do, being a lesbian is not wanting to be a man and that is not at all what is going on with young people these days. The only time I have ever seen that argument is in this article and yet here she is passing it off as not her own theory. Not only has this argument invalidated young trans people but also young lesbians and honestly I don't know how anyone can support that.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions but I really think this article could have been done in a much more sensitive way!

He!! And Alex is currently dating a non binary but traditionally male presenting guy which is why the whole lesbian line running through the article was so wrong!

I hear where you’re coming from Grpsxox.

But there is copious evidence to suggest that lesbians, particularly butch lesbians are being put under tremendous pressure to transition.

As the American conference of 200 detransitioners testifies.

I profoundly disagree with the ideology on several points. The first one is to suggest that gender expression should, or can, dictate your sex. It can’t.

Secondly, and more importantly, I vehemently disagree that other people should have to accommodate what is essentially a lie. I understand, for the sake of alleviating symptoms, it’s often preferable or necessary. But I object to it being mandatory.

The third is the affirmation at all costs protocols, which are effectively ignoring causes of gender dysphoria.

None of this would be particularly worrisome, if it weren’t for the propaganda being put in schools that confuse children. Or the erosion of women’s rights by the concept that people can change sex.

If you removed those last two issues, then people can crack on with whatever they want to do, as adults. No one would care.

Grosxox I'm really interested to hear your opinions on this. Given that detransitioning is a thing, do you believe that there should be more or less gatekeeping when it comes to medical interventions, hormones and surgery etc? Do you think that 'butch' or 'andro' lesbians are more likely to experience bullying, prejudice and dysphoria? Do you support gender self-ID? Sorry if this seems like too many questions, I just want to understand your perspective.

I've seen the concerns that many FTM trans are lesbians being pressured to become boys in many many places. The evidence is that most children presenting with symptoms of gender dysphoria are gay or lesbian and without intervention would grow out of it. It's not just Janice's argument. If you read much gender critical stuff you would know this.

The evidence is that most children presenting with symptoms of gender dysphoria are gay or lesbian and without intervention would grow out of it.

80% is the estimated number.

I’ve just re read the article, I hade the magazine in front of me & Janice Turner refers to Alex as she pre transition & as he post transition. Alex is dating Jake, a transgender man, so they are both transgender men. This information is easily found.

Yeah I’m not sure Grpsxox has actually read the article.

Janice Turner has said that she was exceptionally careful to not misgender anybody. And to back all her assertions by citing evidence.

She knows full well that what she has said is watertight.

Has the text been changed? I can't load the page now but when I read it yesterday it used she for Alex right up until it got to their transition, then switched to he. I don't see how this is offensive, the story even said lex cnsidered herself a girl until she transitioned?

Sorry, should read the whole thread before I post, had only read up to the wailing about using she for Alex. I see this has already been covered, and I suspect those complaining have not even read the article in question as they would know this already. The TAs on twitter are wailing about the use of she also..and clearly have not read it properly

They were looking for any reason to jump on it. Most of them haven't read it.

“we are lucky we live in a time now where they can experiment with their gender expression as well”

You are aware there are ways to do this, and have been for thousands of years, that don’t involve major and irreversible surgical and hormonal changes to one’s body?

I love the notion that it is only this, enlightened generation, with its use of self mutilating surgeries and drug treatments, which has discovered the subversion of gender stereotypes.
God help these people. Ignorance is not a serious handicap in life when coupled with willingness to learn. When coupled with determination not to admit any new ideas or information,you’re finished. No hope. No amount of artificial testosterone is going to help you. You’re done.

It is very well written and there is nothing to complain about on the misgendering front.

The transgender agenda is something that makes you feel you have gone down the rabbit hole in Alice in Wonderland. Much of it leaves you wondering which way is up.

Janice Turner has written a very coherent article and managed cover most of the issues we read about, and get confused by, putting them into one amazing sensible piece. Fantastic writing. I will be reading it all week

I love the notion that it is only this, enlightened generation, with its use of self mutilating surgeries and drug treatments, which has discovered the subversion of gender stereotypes.

It’s like they have never heard of glam rock or David Bowie, Boy George, Adam Ant and any number of New Romantics. Likewise punk girls with ripped clothing and safety pins through their nose. Or those brief few years where every man wore a sarong.

Things are so much more rigid now. And that’s probably part of the problem.

It’s a huge part of the problem. What radiated from Alex’s words was a deep seated belief that there was a right and a wrong way to do femaleness and maleness; and if you’re doing one of those wrong, the only answer is to alter your body to fit the other.
Her description of puberty was most striking. According to her the other girls loved it. That’s not my recollection. Most girls were and are deeply ambivalent about puberty. And that’s ok. Doesn’t mean you’re a bloke.

It’s like they have never heard of glam rock or David Bowie, Boy George, Adam Ant and any number of New Romantics

Or bands from the 60s and 70s. Men with beautiful long hair awash in a sea of silk and velvet and floppy pussy-cat bows. I was watching Old Grey Whistle Test videos from the 1970s- even Lynyrd Skynyrd (and you won't get a much more heteronormative band than them) happily accommodated waist length hair and embroidered floral jackets.

Obviously I have read the article!! It's hard for some people to understand that although as a child Alex used female pronouns he now chooses not to and therefore using female ones towards him, even when talking about him in the past, it horrible partially because it gives an impression that there are situations in which it is acceptable to misgender someone and there aren't.

A lot of people identifying as gay or queer or lesbian before realising they are transgender is not necessarily because they are those things but because they know they are not quote unquote "normal". By teaching lgb young people about the t in LGBT just gives them more language to express themselves with, those feelings were always there before they had the words to describe them.

And Jake, Alex's partner, was assigned female at birth but now identifies as non-binary

By teaching lgb young people about the t in LGBT just gives them more language to express themselves with, those feelings were always there before they had the words to describe them.

What feelings, do you think these are? Specifically.

For me, it’s really important to stay truthful and not betray my principles and the things I really believe in. That sense of personal integrity is really important to me, just as important as a trans persons sense of their gender is to them. We all have things that go to the core of who we are, and for me, adherence to fact and rationality is of that level of importance. If I call Alex “he” I’m betraying that core value. Why is it ok that I’m made to do that? Why is his (there you go, i perjured myself) version of truth more important than mine?

Genervrafanshawe I'll do my best to answer your questions! Personally I think that under 18's should be limited to puberty blockers, all they do is give you some time to work out who you are. If you are transgender it makes transition as an adult much easier and if you aren't stop taking them and you'll start puberty as usual! I haven't personally gone through the gate keeping process but I do know it can be long and tedious but personally I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing and all the specialised doctors are trying to do the best for their patients. Also because of all the gatekeeping, I don't personally know of any young person who has managed any physical transition before realising it's not for them so for me the whole detransotioning thing is a bit of a dead horse.

I'm not sure about the butch lesbians being bullied more honestly. I've never heard of anyone but cisgender male bullies at school telling butch lesbians they should become boys but I could be wrong. As for butch lesbians experiencing dysphoria, if they are presenting as butch and that's what they feel they are there shouldn't be any dysphoria, if they are then maybe they should look into why. There is a big difference between dysphoria and dysmorphia however, and many teenage and adult women suffer from dysmorphia and that is nothing to do with being trans!

Personally I am all up for people identifying themselves as whatever gender they want within reason! Even if I personally think they are wrong I'm not going to maliciously misgender them. As long as they aren't hurting anyone I'm fine with it, and it doesn't take much for us not to hurt them!

I hope that answered your questions a bit!

This is a great article.

Basically, Alex was a butch lesbian teen who hung with guys.

But when they came out they were ostracised.

They began transitioning at fifteen.

They now present as male and are infertile. They are in a relationship with another FtM trans person. Neither of them have had bottom surgery.

What's heartbreaking is their unrealistic view of the future. They dismiss their infertility 'I'll adopt' and when it is pointed out that a fully functioning penis can never be theirs they reply 'never say never'.

It's hope over biology/reality. Fucking cruel.