Janice Turner again in The Times about lesbians

[busyboysmum]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

This woman is a powerhouse.

Interesting point deckoff. I wonder.

I read it with trepidation at first and then increasing satisfaction and understanding - she does a great job of exploring the issues. I feel so sorry for all young lesbians these days and she really helped me see the terrible pressures they face and why transitioning could be a relief.

Thank you for sharing it. Brilliant and heartbreaking.

It isn't all LGB people who think this - and to me it is LGB as it was when I was a teen before all the alphabet soup got tagged on the end. In those days I dealt with discrimination for being a lesbian who wasn't in butch uniform or at the very least androgynous presenting. My presence in gay clubs and bars was openly questioned. At that time, camp gay men were very comfortable in the community too. Now it's the camp gay men and the butch lesbians being questioned and re categorised to suit everyone's comfort.

I know no few lesbians who will no longer have anything to do with LGB organisations as the last thing they are doing is representing the interests of lesbian women. It's all about the men, whether T or gay.

As posted on another thread recently: disabled rights are under constant attack in this country for men, women and children. Raising a disabled child in the UK is at best a postcode lottery and at worst a nightmare. Women's rights very little real progress, FGM minimal real progress in addressing it, Muslim women not a whole lot of support and recognition in the challenges they face. But gay marriage, driven mostly by white men, was pushed through, and Trans legislation which is being largely driven by white, straight, able bodied men, is being galloped through at high speed.

Funny, that.

Some heterosexual girls / women transition because they want to have relationships with men but don't want to be the 'woman' in a relationship

I thought that was called feminism

Serious point though through that... there's two ways to deal with misogyny in society. Either through "transing" it away, which to me is false consciousness, as it's a liberal, individualist solution to a collective, societal wide problem. Individuals may be able to (somewhat) escape through the bars of class oppression, but it leaves them intact for everyone else. It has the superficial veneer of progressiveness, but it's as regressive as the get-on-your-bike entrepreneurism of Thatcher - the few get rich, the many left behind.

The true progressive and radical solution is feminism, it breaks down the bars for everyone. De-coupling sexed bodies from gender expressions and expectations liberates everyone... men are free to wear dresses and make up if they wish (and still be men), women can have cropped hair and do car mechanics (and still be women). Men step up to their share of childcare and housework, women have more time and energy to further their careers into the boardroom.

Transgenderism is an outward manifestation of neoliberalism and post modern capitalism. It's the ultimate in commodification of bodies - identities are there to be bought from the marketplace... fashion, make up, decoration and cosmetic surgery. Gender is viewed as an aesthetic to be "curated" through commodity fetishism, not what it truly is... a brutal hierarchical arrangement of power that sees women harassed, sexually assaulted and viewed as a resource to be extracted for their sexual, reproductive, caring and housekeeping labour. Justice and equality can never be achieved by individualist solutions to collectivist problems.

Some people don't want to live in a world where everyone is free: they'd sooner be slaves with slightly less brutal masters than the other slaves.

I wonder in 20 years time how Alex will feel not only about their own transition but about the potentially thousands of transitions that he will have advocated and facilitated by being such a poster boy. The fact that their mother was so powerless and couldn't raise a voice against the thousands of online supporters is terrifying. And Jessie... all she needed was to see some positive lesbian role models! This is such a self fulfilling vicious circle, the more round lesbians that trans now the fewer older lesbian role models there will be for the next enervation of young lesbians growing up and searching for validation of their identity.

Brilliant article, really shows how homophobia (particularly lesbophobia) is driving this.

Alex is a victim like all the others.

Stephanie Davis Arai runs transgendertrend. The website set up for parents of children who transition.

She gets hundreds and hundreds of emails each week. She has said that she has never yet seen a girl transition who was not either gay, autistic or had suffered some kind of sexual trauma.

Which I can well believe. These girls don’t seem to be embracing masculinity, rather they are escaping femininity.

Also in today's Times - her regular Saturday column.

BahHumbugyye

Your point about neoliberalism and postmodern capitalism is spot on and well-made.

The article by Janice Turner is excellent. I do subscribe to the Times now, as the quality of the journalism is excellent, despite the Murdoch connection. Well done to Janice Turner for sticking her head consistently above the parapet on this. It is a well-researched piece and I am glad some clinicians were brave enough to speak to her.

Yy to proper journalism. I've purposely gone out and bought today's Times after reading this. I want to make sure my DH ( teacher) and teen DC read it.

Thanks CocoaXx

As an avid Guardian reader throughout my teens, twenties and thirties it’s quite depressing to realise the Times is now asking the searching questions and scratching the surface the way the Guardian used to. Am considering a subscription, much as it pains me to say this.

The thread about her other article got zapped because it seems c&p text breaches copyright so I'm putting a link to it here for anybody who still wants to read it.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/children-sacrificed-to-appease-trans-lobby-bq0m2mm95?shareToken=193a9f359a868a1a6795fcda044a9529

How do you get the Share Token, Igneo?

I have a subscription but I haven't been able to work that out.

it seems to without differently on different devices empress
On my PC using Firefox I click on the envelope icon and it opens a new email in my Gmail which has the link with a share token in the body of the mail. On my android tablet using the app there is a triangular icon on the top right hand corner and when I tap it a box pops up with various share options and I use the mail option which gives me the link. However, I tried it on my phone (android) and the app just now and the link was missing the share token. It seems a bit hit and miss what works.

Seems to work differently, not seems without differently

Does anyone know if there any documented cases of gender conforming girls who transition? Will travel through mermaids but wondered if anyone had seen anything elsewhere. Thanks.

From what I've read in the comments section under articles on 4thwavenow quite a lot of girls who are now transitioning were typically feminine in their dress and interests before they suddenly announced that they were really boys.

They’d hold meet-ups in Hyde Park. “No one uses the word ‘lesbian’ any more,” she says. “It’s so uncool. It has really negative connotations.”

I find that chilling, absolutely chilling. After years of campaigning and finally equal marriage we are back in a situation for lesbians where they are told they are uncool and should be boys.

Thank you for the post.

Bahumbygge brilliant post, excellent way of summing up what feels very difficult to sum up.

Pls support by writing to [email protected] or [email protected] as they are being bombarded with calls to bring the article down. Here at mum's net they close a thread because of copyright so beware if you copy the text. Pls support Janice Turner also on Twitter and any social media you use. We need women like her always but now more Bethan ever for the sake of our daughters and sons!

Agree totally ^ - shocked that Ruth Hunt has referred to lesbians as terfy!! Lesbians have totally been thrown under the bus!!

I read this with a little anxiety, 14yo dd has been out as a lesbian for around a year, she has short hair but her clothing choices cover the whole range from jeans, DMs and a hoodie to very elegant dresses with make up being equally variable. Her interests and career ideas are traditionally male, engineering features heavily.

She has been asked by other teens and well meaning adults if she thinks she might really be a boy but thankfully she has always said no, that she might be gay but she is still a woman.

She does look up to some positive lesbian role models, she loves Sue Perkins, Susan Calman and Ellen DeGeneres but she is also into the music of All Time Low and 21 Pilots so I hope she can remain happy to be herself.