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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boys can enter girls' dormitories at state boarding school

325 replies

pisacake · 15/10/2017 11:04

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-boys-to-board-withgirls-at-gordons-school-qrllwztm3

"Gordon’s School in Woking, Surrey, is drawing up guidance for pupils saying they can ask to wear the uniform of the opposite sex, be addressed by a different name and/or pronouns, use gender-neutral ­lavatories, grow their hair long if they are boys, change their accommodation and wear make-up and jewellery."

Note that the uniform policy says:

www.gordons.surrey.sch.uk/uniform

"Make-up and nail varnish are both not allowed. This includes all make-up.
Girls are only allowed one earring in the lobe of each ear – no other piercings are allowed. With the exception of the above rule, jewellery is not allowed."

So it appears they are allowing make-up in order to cater for boys who want to dress up as girls. Line edited by MNHQ

"The school said it had acted because it had “become aware of students who would ‘come out’ after leaving the school”. It wanted pupils to feel safe to do so while still in their care."

Being safe obviously means allowing boys to sleep in the girls dormitories which are supposed to be safe spaces for girls who may be thousands of miles from their parents (most boarders are army children).

"The Boarding Schools’ Association has issued guidance to schools saying that if a boy intends to change gender he should be offered the chance to sleep in the girls’ dormitory and vice versa."

"Not all parents are happy about such changes. On Friday, parents at Highgate, a coeducational London private day school, received a letter from the head teacher, Adam Pettitt, apologising for the introduction of gender-neutral lavatories. Some younger pupils, he admitted, had felt “less comfortable and happy at school” as a result.

Highgate brought in the lavatories “to support gender-fluid pupils”, only for parents to ask if the change was “proportionate” given how few such students were at the school."

OP posts:
badbadhusky · 16/10/2017 08:37

Sentimental - I thought your example of not being able to play netball was an excellent example of how gender is unhelpful and narrows the options of both sexes. There is absolutely no good reason why netball cannot be played in shorts or a tracksuit by either sex (its a variant of basketball basically). Its the gendered notions of boys vs girls sports and different uniforms which is the real barrier.

BetsyM00 · 16/10/2017 10:19

might I suggest that you just say no. Say gender is not the same as sex. And then let the fight come to you.

Yes, yes, yes! I completely despair at the amount of organisations - Women's Aid, sporting bodies, women festivals and feminist and political groups - who are either coerced or volunteer to give away female rights. I would do my utmost to support any of these groups who had the gumption to say NO! We really need to do this and then argue any ensuing dissension in open court for case law to be set.

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 10:22

The issue is, is that's suicide betsy

I would support it too but I'm not sure I'd be brace enough to do it.
Just look at the backlash, it's frightening!

pisacake · 16/10/2017 10:27

interesting comment from FB:

" Being as though the school has an awful reputation for bullying, in general public and social services (we were advised not to go there by social services because it's such a problem) I don't think I'd allow a transgender child there full stop... Our child is not transgender but has issues away from that area"

OP posts:
morningrunner · 16/10/2017 10:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sashh · 16/10/2017 10:36

I worked at a college where one, but not all, of the accessible toilets was also a transgender toilet.

It worked well because anyone complaining about not being able to use the ladies or gents could be told that disabled students didn't use them, that it was equal provision and actually as the toilet the college had chosen had a shower in it they had better facilities.

Also someone who was both disabled and trans would have to use the accessible toilet.

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 10:38

morning

That's great but then what do you do when they start saying you can't talk about female biology in reference to women, or that you have you have to share your space with a biological man, or they start logging trans women's crimes as women so you can't have a conversation about male violence anymore because 'women are violent too'.

like religion it's totally fine until they start using it as a reason to take away your rights.

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 10:39

sash but that's not what the trans activists want, they don't want a deprecate toilet, they want to use the women's.

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 10:40

*seperate obvs

morningrunner · 16/10/2017 10:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 16/10/2017 10:44

But at the moment, the only people who can legally change sex are those with gender reassignment certificate. That has to be remembered. Biologically no one can ever change sex. In the meantime a legal change of sex is still few and far between.

At the moment, it’s just about guidelines and pressure.

morningrunner · 16/10/2017 10:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 11:04

y the harm being greater if the situation is reversed, I meant forcing trans girls, many of which will want to wear dresses, makeup have long hair (jazz jennings for example) to enter the male bathroom, with the others males who will hopefully be unknowing of what is in her underwear. Similarly forcing a trans boy into the female toilets (but i understand how the opposite is the main point of this conversation, as the majority of you are female

What you are suggesting though, about the children having to change etc. with where their 'gender identity' lies (ie transgirls with the girls) is hugely dangerous. As transboys...are female. Your way of wanting things, places a lone female person with a bunch of males...just because the female 'identifies' as a boy. Did you think of it that way around, or did you only think about transgirls and how they would feel?

Its dangerous to put males and females together in areas of life which are sex segregated. Simple as.

Even without the danger aspect, there is just the privacy aspect. Teen girls do not want to change infront of teen boys. Teen boys may not be as bothered but I would think many of them would not want to change infront of teen girls either.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 11:05

Did you think of it that way around = Did you not think it through properly that way around

TempStamos · 16/10/2017 11:15

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1591015-Which-toilets-a-F-to-M-transgender-student-should-use?pg=8

This is a thread from 2012 discussing a similar issue, except the majority of the posters are being accepting and open minded about the issue. I am really struggling to believe that in 5 years that so many people are regressing to backwards thinking transphobic ideas.

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 11:19

People haven't slipped back, the vast majority of people on this thread want to support young trans people and care deeply about their rights and welfare.
Just not at the cost of women.

Gileswithachainsaw · 16/10/2017 11:23

5 years ago it wasn't do much of a problem.

I'd have been saying the same thing tbh. If never thought past not wabting to upset people.

I thank MN for educating me on the matter.

I see the problem now I didn't befire.

As far as I'm concerned if sone perv wants to self identify just to watch me change they can crack on.

But I cabt speak for others and my kids don't wanna change with boys

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 11:27

Temp the landscape was totally different 5 years ago too, there wasn't this huge push for self identification, which is the big thing that threatens women's rights.

Blanchefleur · 16/10/2017 11:28

I am really struggling to believe that in 5 years that so many people are regressing to backwards thinking transphobic ideas.

That's funny, because I'm struggling to believe that so many people are looking at the misogyny and homophobia of the trans agenda and the steady removal of women's rights - and thinking that this is somehow progressive?

SentimentalLentil · 16/10/2017 11:33

Temp

I'm curious because you said upthread that you think that there should a diagnosis of dysphoria to be able to change your gender legally.

Do you agree with self identification? That someone could just say 'I identify as' and then it's up to society to treat them as such, so if I say I'm a man I have to go to a mans prison and if I say I'm a woman then I go to a woman's one. That if a professional questions my identity like if a dr suggests that maybe I need counselling first rather than surgery or puberty blockers then the professional could get in trouble for not accepting my identity.

pisacake · 16/10/2017 11:33

You are struggling to believe? Seriously?

So you missed the stories since 2012 about male rapists being transferred to female prisons? www.thesun.co.uk/news/4400327/transgender-rapist-womens-prison/ You missed the stories since 2012 where multiple men have gained 'women of the year' awards at the expense of well, you know, actual women? www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/caitlyn-jenner-glamour-women-of-the-year-awards-america You missed the stories since 2012 of exhibitionist boys wanting unrestricted access to female spaces at school? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219186/Almost-200-Missouri-students-walk-class-protest-transgender-high-school-senior-allowed-use-girls-bathroom.html You missed the story since 2012 of a woman being brutally at Speaker's Corner for criticising transgenderism? www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/09/trans-rights-terfs-and-bruised-60-year-old-what-happened-speakers-corner You missed the case since 2012 in the High Court of the prominent transgender charity run by a mother who had her son's genitals chopped off age 16 in Thailand being told to stop brainwashing a 4-year-old boy that he was actually a girl, in the face of strong evidence to the contrary? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4960080/Transgender-charity-banned-contacting-family.html You missed the case since 2012 of MULTIPLE transgender rapists being described as 'women' by the police? www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/missing-woman-dressed-as-man-seen-in-dronfield-1-7873949 www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4289920/Woman-26-appears-court-charged-raping-man.html

Are you seriously surprised that when female and (in particular) lesbian identity is erased by men who declare themselves to be women, that somehow people are changing their minds?

OP posts:
SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 16/10/2017 11:39

^www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1591015-Which-toilets-a-F-to-M-transgender-student-should-use?pg=8^

This is a thread from 2012 discussing a similar issue, except the majority of the posters are being accepting and open minded about the issue. I am really struggling to believe that in 5 years that so many people are regressing to backwards thinking transphobic ideas.

Seems to me that as this was a female wanting to use the mens they should probably be asking the men how they feel about that? Otherwise we're in a similar situation of people happily granting someone (the trans identifying female) something because they haven't empathised with the people it's affecting (the men expecting to be able to pee without a female present).

Now it's slightly different, in that I very much doubt that the men are going to find the trans identifying female physically intimidating - unlike a trans identifying man in the women's toilet.

Datun · 16/10/2017 11:39

temp

After reading the points that people are making, can you explain how you think the trans ideology is progressive?

What is it going to progress, exactly?

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 11:43

And there it is, the accusation of transphobia.

Believing biological sex is an actual thing, and that it actually matters in certain areas of life, is not transphobic at all.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 11:45

Are you seriously surprised that when female and (in particular) lesbian identity is erased by men who declare themselves to be women, that somehow people are changing their minds?

In-fucking-deed.

But yeah, waaahhh transphobia.