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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

White women- it's all your fault

477 replies

WeldMeDaphne · 19/08/2017 22:27

I will preface this by saying that I am indeed a white woman. And I realise this affords me a lot of privilege.
Among a lot of the rhetoric around the Events unfolding in the US (mostly Charlottesville), I've seen a number of open letters to white women about our complicity in the neo-nazi and white supremacist movement in the US and elsewhere. Clearly those women marching last week on the nazi side were white, but there was a lot of suggestion that those white women not marching but associated with men marching (wives girlfriends etc) were just as culpable as the men wielding torches and assault rifles. I guess I would like some help understanding how this is a white woman issue rather than the white men being responsible for their own actions? I get that one of those pieces said those men are going home to pie cooked by their doting wives but I just feel as though a man who holds those views and has no issue with demonstrating them publically is unlikely to be a caring loving husband?
I am fully prepared to listen to all view points and I totally understand that the people on these marches are white, but they're mostly men, right? Sonhow is this women's fault?

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muchomo · 21/08/2017 21:45

I appreciate you acknowledging my point, but do you know what makes me really angry

  1. Seeing White Women time and time again benefiting from White Priviledge and whineing that they are disadvantaged. While women of colour have to work twice as hard in the work place and are not promoted as they should while less expecirirnced white women are.
  1. Feminists dropping women of colour and our struggles into their arguments as anecdotes when not having a clue what what our issues are and what we have to deal with.
  1. White women behaving like they are completely passive when it come to racism, ignoring their complicitness and benefiting from it.
  1. White Feminists completely ignoring the views and experiences of Women of colour and their experiences, and patronising them in relation to their culture, values and personal views.
  1. The casual racism by White Women towards women and men of colour
  1. Including Women of colour when its trendy or convenient without including their views.

That and a lot of other things annoy me.

Gonegonegone · 21/08/2017 21:47

Much where is the source about white women accusing black men of rape?

It is rare that any rape case that gets to court isn't real. In the UK anyways. We simply don't spend money to prosecute unless there's a good chance we can win and in rape cases that means evidence and a very convincing witness. Ofcourse it's possible that there are wrong convictions, but it's rare, and the rhetoric of women lying about poor men raping her is why so many victims don't come forward.

BossyBitch · 21/08/2017 21:49

I've just remembered that I actualky did use to know a woman who was dating a neo-nazi back in the 90s. Or maybe 'know' is a bit of an exaggeration, but she was a good friend of a friend (whom I'll call X for the sake of brevity) and we went out together a few times as part of the same group.

X's boyfriend, Y, was a violent, supremely stupid but also deeply insecure bona fide white supremacist with more than a few issues. His insecurity was what X and he had in common. X was also an extremely attractive young woman. She was really messed up in her own way and used to draw massive amounts of self-validation from the fact that men lusted after her and wanted her. In a lot of other ways, and certainly from a gender perspective, she was a pitiful person - but not when it came to Y.

X could have had her pick of the men and boys around town, but I truly believe being with Y gave her a screwed-up sort of kick. She was not herself openly racist as such (and has since got married to an Asian man) but used to threaten people with her aggressive, scary, gun-owning boyfriend. She certainly threatened me (and I'm white!) with Y beating me to pulp for my leftists views when we had a minor disagreement one day. In a lot of ways, she treated dating Y the way some people do owning an attack dog: she used him to intimidate people who crossed her!

I'm obviously not saying that this is what all women dating neo-nazis are like. The plural of anecdote is not data, either. But X clearly benefitted from and actively instrumentalised Y's violent racism for her own ends. IMO, that's a step further than complicit.

Wow! I hadn't thought about her in about 15 years!

muchomo · 21/08/2017 21:50

Gonegonegone there have been numerous cases, it's not my job to educate you. I have the same resources as you.

Gonegonegone · 21/08/2017 21:50

Yeah much that doesn't answer the point I was making. You said no women of colour say that and I've seen a high profile one doing so recently.

Ofcourse women play a role in racism, but they are not responsible for male violence, that's on men. It is far too common to blame women for mens actions, believe it or not men are responsible for themselves.

BossyBitch · 21/08/2017 21:51

Please excuse the various typos. My phone and I are engaged in a power struggle and it seems I'm losing.

Original poster
WeldMeDaphne · 21/08/2017 21:51

Muchomo, I agree that the women attending these marches are as vile as the men, and equally deserving of contempt. I don't know about the rest, if it was easy as women actively enabling, then of course, but it's not like women generally have had much of a voice through a lot of history, so yes, I do need to educate myself. Could white womens voices have been louder about issues facing women of colour? Almost certainly.

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Gonegonegone · 21/08/2017 21:52

If you make a claim it's your job to back it up. If you don't have evidence then you don't have a point.

SylviaPoe · 21/08/2017 21:54

I'm not American, but it does seem extremely unlikely to me that feminists are going to be dating Neo nazis.

Given how polarised politics are in America, it also seems unlikely that white feminists are friends with the partners of Neo nazis or even have many trump supporters within their circle of friends.

I thought people were very, very divided over there at the moment.

muchomo · 21/08/2017 21:55
  1. White women questioning the experiences of Women of Colour to try and make them appear less valid.
SylviaPoe · 21/08/2017 21:55

'I agree that the women attending these marches are as vile as the men.'

They're surely not as vile as the man who ran a woman over in his car and killed her though.

There are degrees of vileness surely.

muchomo · 21/08/2017 21:58

Actually Gone google is a wonderful thing but here's one for free en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottsboro_Boys

hiphopwired.com/548527/breana-harmon-indicted-false-rape/

Gonegonegone · 21/08/2017 21:58

Anecdote isn't data much so if you can't back up your claim it doesn't mean anything on the internet where you could be a white male for all I know. It's standard to provide evidence on MN discussions, not race related and not invalidating. Check out other discussions if you need proof of that. 'reciepts' is a common request.

muchomo · 21/08/2017 21:59

It's pointless comparing vileness. Comparing one terrorist from another Confused.

muchomo · 21/08/2017 22:00

I've sent you a recent and historical example "gone" and that took one minute in google Grin

Copperbeech33 · 21/08/2017 22:01

White supremacism is not the fault of "white men" either.

It's the fault of white supremacists.

exactly.

who wastes their time on this sexist racist gibberish

Original poster
WeldMeDaphne · 21/08/2017 22:02

Pressed send too soon there, and typing slowly.
Ok, I understand that I have comparative privilege. But comparative to men I do not. So should I just suck that up so you don't have to listen to me whine? This is the thing though. I can't ever have the experience of a woman of colour, obviously. And no, it's not your job to educate me, but everything I will go and read now will be framed through my experience as a white woman. And I will admit a relatively privileged one at that. But I have still been threatened by men's behaviour, and missed out on work opportunities because a white man with less experience has been given that opportunity. But when I discuss women being paid less than men, I am just thinking about women generally. In future, and not just around this issue, I will be aware of the bias I am inferring.

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SylviaPoe · 21/08/2017 22:03

I didn't know we were only comparing terrorists.

I thought we were comparing all those who attended the march.

Original poster
WeldMeDaphne · 21/08/2017 22:04

Sylvia yes there are, but I suppose the men who were just marching are slightly less vile than that particular scumbag. I was kind of excluding him as he is kind of head and shoulders above in the vileness stakes.

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MotherPeresA · 21/08/2017 22:06

I think there's a failure to acknowledge that a lot of these arguments are exactly the same used by all people that are challenged by those that are having their privilege pointed out to them: refusal to acknowledge the experience that's being shared, trivialising the relevance of issues, and claiming detachment.

If you belong to a class that enables and enforces an oppressive culture and system... well, you know how the rest goes.

"Oh, but I'm not a white man, I'm a feminist. Solidarity yay!" Err, no.

Gonegonegone · 21/08/2017 22:06

You made it sound like it was a daily occurance where white women accusing black men of rape and getting them locked up for life. That's two examples decades apart.

I could also find numerous examples of women sexually abusing children and I am a victim of that first hand, but that doesn't make it the normal occurance by any stretch and it doesn't invalidate that mpv is real.

Equally I could find numerous examples of women lying about rape, and I know if one case first hand also. But that doesn't make it the norm that women lye about rape nor does it proof that most rapists get away with their crimes.

Evidence is data. It's vile when women lie about rape and worse if they use race as a way of making it more likely they will be believed, but that doesn't make it likely that anyone convicted through the courts because a white woman accuses them is innocent.

SylviaPoe · 21/08/2017 22:07

Daphne, it's hard for me to understand American culture, but I'd consider those openly carrying guns to be worse than those not doing, because it is so threatening.

There was an article in the New Statesman on this - I'll try and find the link.

They mentioned one woman - Wife with a Purpose. I looked at her blog and it is like a different universe.

muchomo · 21/08/2017 22:07

I think more people need to educate themselves on racism and the history of slavery. White Women benefitted tremendously from this. I mean for goodness sake at one time Black women were breast feeding the baby's their slave owners and easing their children. Some people would like to go back to those times what do you think these people are fighting for exactly?

Original poster
WeldMeDaphne · 21/08/2017 22:09

OK motherPeresA, but my privilege is there. I can't do anything about it, except acknowledge it, and acknowledge when it is getting in my way.

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