How common is it for men to push women out of their way in public or hurt us if we don't move quickly enough?

[AskBasil]

The two news stories this week, about the jogger who threw a woman under a bus in Putney Bridge and the cancellation of the woman's only swimming session, has made me think about how often I've been quite literally pushed around, by men in public.

When I go swimming, I am frequently overtaken by men who should get into the faster lane with the other men if they want to go at the pace they are going at; quite often they'll kick me or shove me aside as they overtake and I have to be really careful that they don't surprise me and make me swallow water and start flailing. Luckily I know men sometimes behave like this, so I'm prepared and it doesn't affect me, but I've seen other women get out of the pool because they don't know how they can carry on using it safely with an entitled nobhead in it.

I've also frequently been literally walked into by men as I was walking along the street. When I was young and realised men did this, I would look out for them so that I could avoid them hurting me. Which is their point isn't it - they are giving women they do this to, a very clear message that if we don't submit to ceding the space they are demanding from us, they will use their greater size and strength to hurt us.

It's a very subtle (or perhaps not so subtle) form of male violence, or at least male dominant behaviour against women - they tend not to do it to other males, unless they are generally violent and the other males are smaller and they estimate, weaker than them.

Then they can use their male privilege to deny that they're doing it and women are imagining that they're doing it.

I'm very small - under 5ft - so I used to put it down to that. But having discussed the Putney bridge incident with friends, a lot of much taller women than me are saying they too, have frequently been pushed aside, barged into, walked into and sometimes it was obviously deliberate. One friend said she was really shocked to be barged into by a woman once as it's so unusual, whereas men barging into her is par for the course.

I dunno, I suppose I'm just wondering how common it is, I thought it was just me.

My friend and I were on a footpath which was quite narrow but flat ground on either side with our two kids who were wandering on and off on the grass at either side. Behind us was a couple of women with a few children plus an elderly lady they were pushing in a wheelchair.

A male cyclist came towards us ringing his bell and we had to move plus tell our kids to watch out. The bell ringing got even more furious as he approached the group behind us until they parted to let him through.

He obviously thought he was more entitled to use the tarmac FOOTpath than we were.

This was last week and the path leads from the beach promenade to a children's swing park.

I get it frequently. I am a walker and I walk very quickly and I am slight but stronger than I look at 4 foot 11. The most pathetic time was a man was stood chatting in my way on the pavement and I couldn't get off the road because of him.I said excuse a few times becoming louder and louder, he clearly heard me and looked and looked away sneering As a car came I just pushed my pram over his feet instead and THEN he saw me and made a massive show of me hurting his foot and tried not letting me pass. I said "so what , you saw me, you didn't let me pass, so I had to push you". He was furious! He was about to say something else until my husband came up to meet me and the stupid twat had to look upwards at my 6 foot 3 husband who actually is a softy

I couldn't get on the path elsewhere because of road works by the way

I've had this quite a few times, most recently in London going for the train - guy literally ran over me to get on the train (no rush as there was a good 10 mins before departure time). I gave him a mouthful & he told me to fuck off - no way would that have happened if my DH had been beside me. Makes me feel very angry.

I have got it with other male runners when out running too - ended up in a slanging match with one.

I'll always say something though & totally not afraid to sound rough as fuck - couldn't give a shit what anyone thinks of me (but I do tailor my language in front of my DCs!)

I can't remember this happening to me, but I tend to give way to the other person by going round them. I just like to get on with it and couldn't be arsed with staring anyone down.
My niece was pushed by a man in a shop, and was injured as a result but I'm not sure of the situation. I think he might have been running away from a police officer or security, rather than attacking her for the hell of it.

Oh yeah, swimming. I've never being pushed out of the way, but I have been pushed against the wall by a man. I don't swim at very busy times though.
There is one guy who creates a tidal wave when he swims and a lot of people (both men and women) get out of the pool when he swims to avoid being drowned. He doesn't do it on purpose though - he actually seems quite friendly, he just has a bad though powerful technique.
jasmine if you're swimming in a lane then you should move to one side to allow faster swimmers to move past. Lanes are for people to swim properly at full speed, not to be forced to swim slowly behind slower swimmers. That's really annoying (and it's usually women who do it).

There is one guy who creates a tidal wave when he swims and a lot of people (both men and women) get out of the pool when he swims to avoid being drowned. He doesn't do it on purpose though - he actually seems quite friendly, he just has a bad though powerful technique

Oh gosh, I know the sort!

jasmine if you're swimming in a lane then you should move to one side to allow faster swimmers to move past. Lanes are for people to swim properly at full speed, not to be forced to swim slowly behind slower swimmers. That's really annoying (and it's usually women who do it)

ITA. I've also noticed a subset of men as well, but yes, mainly women. But then, the swim lanes are frequently divided by gender anyway - I rarely see women in the fast lanes.

I started a thread on this when I was pregnant. I had read a study (sorry, no idea where or when) that showed that men automatically assumed that women would move for them. Not twat-like men who physically move people, but just ordinary men. The point was that they have been socialised to assume they have right of way.
At the time, heavily pregnant with serious back problems, I started to notice it because I realised that I physically couldn't get out of the way. And as a result, I was being bashed into a lot. And it made me realise that without being conscious of it, I usually move and give men right of way in those situations.

I discussed it with DH who at first thought I was being silly. Then he shamefacedly told me a day or two later that he thinks he does it too. He just hadn't realised. So he'd always let someone ahead of him on a train or whatever, give up his seat etc. But without even realising it, he would walk assuming others (women) would get out of his way. Naturally, he has made a conscious effort to stop doing this.

The point is, as others have pointed out up thread in the office etc, a lot of men don't even realise it's happening. And when it's pointed out, and they accept it, they're mortified. It's so ingrained.

We just have lanes, Spartacus. But I don't swim at very busy times so it might be different then.
Being a devils advocate here, I think very good male swimmers are much more powerful, and heavier and stronger of course than most women , and if you can't keep up with them it's best to let them have their space for safety's sake. Same with a very fast female swimmer, just stay out of their space.
I'm an average speed swimmer and I have no problem with that. I've never noticed any aggression from men or women, but people do want to swim properly.

And it made me realise that without being conscious of it, I usually move and give men right of way in those situations

I don't think I do this, but I'm going to walk consciously next time I'm in a busy place and see. Mostly I'm dashing from A to B and moving around people because I'm moving faster, but I'll see.

This has never happened to me.

We just have lanes, Spartacus. But I don't swim at very busy times so it might be different then

You could try suggesting them - I think they do quell a lot of angst.

Yes, good male swimmers will be faster than good female swimmers. My comment was more about explaining why people noticed women swimming slowly and not moving for faster swimmers, but I realise now that it is irrelevant because you don't have marked lanes.

'it's usually women who do it'

If it happens quite a lot, it rather suggests other swimmers don't agree with you about what is supposed to happen.

'I physically couldn't get out of the way.'

This is the problem with men being socialised this way. So many disabled people and people with other health or physical issues as you've described need others to move out of their way. It can be very scary to feel at so much physical risk, with people barging into them.

If it happens quite a lot, it rather suggests other swimmers don't agree with you about what is supposed to happen

Or that they are inconsiderate.

If men push women out the way a lot does it mean that there is general agreement that this is OK?

I would hope that most reasonable people would try to be considerate to everyone, regardless of the space they are in.

I show extra consideration for vulnerable people, not people who feel entitled to additional space.

I've had a man push my 4 year old daughter out of the way with his walking stick.

Plenty of room to walk round her but insisted on lifting up his stick and shove her aside instead of asking excuse me.

We don't want "additional space" - we just want to be able to swim at our own pace without someone sticking in front even though they are slower than everyone else in the lane @@. I move for swimmers who are faster than me - it's not rocket science or the biggest impediment in the world you know.

I just try and show consideration for all others in the pool Spartacus, whether they're faster or slower than me.

The same applies in other public spaces too.

Likewise. That's why I get out of the way of faster swimmers. I get them off my back and they get to swim at their own pace. Win/win.

RockyBird oh deary me, how terrible for you for having to move out of the way for someone. Must have been a terrible ordeal.

This faster swimmers rights thing is maybe more suited to AIBU than the feminist board.

The point of this thread is about people being pushed, shoved, grabbed, forced on to roads, lifted and verbally abused for not giving others (mainly men) priority in public spaces.

There must be something we can do about that.

MrGHardy

RockyBird oh deary me, how terrible for you for having to move out of the way for someone. Must have been a terrible ordeal

There is no need for the sarcasm. So far as the cyclist, there are loads of tarmaced paths which are for cyclists and pedestrians, so I'm not immediately seeing what was so terrible about what the cyclist did or what was so unreasonable about having to move out of his way. Cycling over the grass at the side does not seem a good idea.

LassWiTheDelicateAir

The issue is there is one of him, but nine other people. Including a woman in a wheelchair and four kids.

I understand why he wanted them to move, because he was on a bike and on a roll.

But the rights one person shouldn't override those of nine others.

RockyBird oh deary me, how terrible for you for having to move out of the way for someone. Must have been a terrible ordeal.

A man writes...