How common is it for men to push women out of their way in public or hurt us if we don't move quickly enough?

[AskBasil]

The two news stories this week, about the jogger who threw a woman under a bus in Putney Bridge and the cancellation of the woman's only swimming session, has made me think about how often I've been quite literally pushed around, by men in public.

When I go swimming, I am frequently overtaken by men who should get into the faster lane with the other men if they want to go at the pace they are going at; quite often they'll kick me or shove me aside as they overtake and I have to be really careful that they don't surprise me and make me swallow water and start flailing. Luckily I know men sometimes behave like this, so I'm prepared and it doesn't affect me, but I've seen other women get out of the pool because they don't know how they can carry on using it safely with an entitled nobhead in it.

I've also frequently been literally walked into by men as I was walking along the street. When I was young and realised men did this, I would look out for them so that I could avoid them hurting me. Which is their point isn't it - they are giving women they do this to, a very clear message that if we don't submit to ceding the space they are demanding from us, they will use their greater size and strength to hurt us.

It's a very subtle (or perhaps not so subtle) form of male violence, or at least male dominant behaviour against women - they tend not to do it to other males, unless they are generally violent and the other males are smaller and they estimate, weaker than them.

Then they can use their male privilege to deny that they're doing it and women are imagining that they're doing it.

I'm very small - under 5ft - so I used to put it down to that. But having discussed the Putney bridge incident with friends, a lot of much taller women than me are saying they too, have frequently been pushed aside, barged into, walked into and sometimes it was obviously deliberate. One friend said she was really shocked to be barged into by a woman once as it's so unusual, whereas men barging into her is par for the course.

I dunno, I suppose I'm just wondering how common it is, I thought it was just me.

They don't seem to have any spatial awareness of any other human around them, they just barge about like they are the only person on the street.
Now I'm 55 and don't care what people think any more I give them a right telling off if they do that to me

I'm absolutely fascinated to know what it must be like walking through life like some of these men, if not all of them.

To be entirely unencumbered by the sense of themselves in relation to others, in the way women are not.

'Manspreading' is now recognised by almost everyone. Obviously it's been present since forever. It was automatically part of the human psyche that just went unacknowledged.

Most people afforded it zero space in their conscious thought. Men didn't realise they were doing it, women accepted it without question.

But as soon as it became a thing that everyone knew but hadn't realised, it was one little tick on the checklist of male entitlement that is no longer ignored (at least as a phenomenon, if not in actuality).

I, for one, am glad that this sense of space ownership is now being highlighted.

Grabbing a female swimmer by her ankle, indeed. Fuck that. Her ankle today, Taylor Swift's arse tomorrow.

there was a study about bike safety on roads a few years back.
it was observed that people with helmets or with long hair or appearing obviously female were given much less space by other road users.

Yes to aggression walking with the buggy because I didn't alter my course out of a man's way.

Yes to road rage because I didn't move over to the left lane fast enough for the man's liking. He nearly killed me and the people behind.

Yes to aggression on the train because I was too noisy in the quiet carriage (apparently).

Yes to several aggressive incidents over parking.

Every time without fail an older, very angry, white male.

Never ever by a woman. And I have never been aggressive presented with the same circumstances myself, either.

However, this week I've been driving Dh's car which is a much better/bigger car than mine (which shouldn't matter because said junction is in a 20/30 zone) and it hasn't happened once.

I don't know I maybe reading too much into it and maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with stereotypically men's and women's cars but I've certainly noticed a difference in how other road users treat me this week.

Definitely a thing.

I drive a lot of miles and get a lot less tail-gating / aggression in my BMW than I used to get in my old Focus.

My DH who drives for a living told me I would notice this and sure enough I have.

"There is a supermarket I used to use a lot (Tesco and Lidl have both opened nearer) that has a revolving door.

I walk with a stick quite slowly so men will ooften push past to get in to the door.

But what they don't realise is there is a button to slow it down for people with disabilities.

I have it down to a fine art, be barged past, press the button, man walks into door."

That's rather rude of you. Do these people hit you when they "barge past" you?

Yep there is a swim lane etiquette which as a lap swimmer one is aware of, but being grasped by the ankle (because actually he didn't get ahead of me fast enough) was the issue.
On cars, I agree with this and get overtaken, when going at the speed limit, regularly. My car is a bright yellow green. If I drive the others 4X4 it doesn't happen, until they see I'm an older woman of course

That's rather rude of you. Do these people hit you when they "barge past" you?

what's with the sarcastic air quotes? these men have just, with their greater size, strength, weight and bulk barged (no sarcastic air quotes) a disabled woman out of their way. They could have done serious damage. A door to the face seems like a pretty good comeuppance for being so rude and endangering a physically more frail human being to me.

I can hold my own in the swimming pool, and I have been known to overtake people who have no fucking idea of lane discipline and don't stop at the ends to let faster swimmers go ahead

Yes, what is it with that? Isn't it just common sense that if you have someone champing at your fucking ankles that you stop and let them past?

I used to be a fast swimmer, now not so much, but I can put on a burst of speed over short distances. I overtake the slowcoaches if they are in my way and don't stop at the ends (or I speed up at the end, briefly switch the other lane and push off in front of them).

But I most enjoy the he-men who do the fake Tarzan warm-ups, have all the latest gear and thrash one or two lengths at full speed ... before conking out. I love overtaking them, doing breaststroke.

Men walking and expecting you to move out of the way is a definite thing. I work with young people and I have a 'work walk'. I assume they will move and stand and eyeball the lads if they don't.

They are shocked at being expected to move. It enlivens my day making them jump away.

I conducted an experiment on this today while I was out and about in town. Nobody walked into me or encroached into my personal space without saying sorry or excuse me first. Is it to do with resting bitch face? Mine is on point.

'Isn't it just common sense that if you have someone champing at your fucking ankles that you stop and let them past? '

No, because if you're a slow swimmer you'd spend a great deal of your time stopping to let faster people past.

There's nothing rude about overtaking someone, as long as you don't expect them to move.

Presumably men have many of these thoughts in their heads in a variety of public spaces. I'm bigger/stronger/faster/more important/fitter/more capable/doing something more important, so others should get out of my way.

No, because if you're a slow swimmer you'd spend a great deal of your time stopping to let faster people past

Oh well, as said, I'm slow these days but don't have a problem stopping to let those faster than me past.

I'm not capable of overtaking others by a sudden burst of speed. I'm always a slow swimmer.

I'm assuming that's what it feels like for people (many women, disabled people) who are expected to always move in public spaces.

The difference is that I can just choose not to go swimming. Many people also end up choosing not to go into city centres etc and limit their lives because of public behaviour towards them.

The accounts on this thread of people being picked up or grabbed and moved are particularly awful.

I do get that disabled people might be adversely affected and experience reticence to go into public places ... but women? isn't that an overstatement?

Many women, and men for that matter, avoid city centres in evenings or at other busy times.

In some people that becomes part of mental health issues - certainly there is a physical space component to anxiety and panic attacks, and those are much more common in women.

It reminds me of the advice to get outside, get more exercise if you have mental health issues.

But then there are threads on here about people yelling abuse at female runners, and pushing them, driving too close to them etc.

Just last week, I was walking in my local shopping centre, a man walked past me in the opposite direction, as he passed barged int me really hard with his elbow. It really hurt. I was most shocked that despite how hard he had hit me, he never once looked back. He just kept walking with his partner and child who were obviously oblivious yo what had just happened.

I wanted to run after and tell him he had just hit me really hard and demand an apology, but then for some reason got a bit frightened as I was still in shock of what had happened and nursing my shoulder.

I don't know why some men behave like this at all.

I worked at a university with a very busy, diverse campus. I have to park at a car park on the far end and walk a long stretch of pavement, and then a pedestrian 'street' with campus buildings either side. It's always heaving with people. I noticed some time ago that in general, approaching from the opposite direction we would both do a slight swerve and pass accordingly. It's so busy the only way to really navigate it all is to zip back and forth across the path. However there are a large proportion of men who will continue onwards as if they own a straight line of the path. I experiment quite a bit with this theory on my walk into work, and have perfected a sort of stance and a 'no - you move' expression. There is a definite cultural aspect to the 'own the straight' types too. By far the worst are white, male lecturers!

I get this in my workplace. I work on a huge shipyard, so most of the staff are male. They walk 3 abreast on the narrow paths, and I started to wonder why I kept having to step off into the roadways. So I started to stare them down. If they barge me, I make a comment. Some are polite but most try to stare me down. We also have a good harassment policy and I will use it if I have to; everyone's name is on their overalls!

Coming out of airside at Gatwick last week, a woman was standing directly smack bang in the space that all passengers have to come past. Walked straight into herby accident as no time to swerve.

Suggested to her that this was a daft place to stand as there were about 200 people coming behind me and was told to fuck off you fat bitch and mind your own fucking business!

I harbour a space invader in my very own home

We have an awful kitchen that's awkward to get around - if someone is sitting at the table and hasn't tucked themself in, then whoever is moving around the kitchen has to squeeze past multiple times to go between the fridge, cupboard, cooker and worktop (I hate that fucking kitchen - but I digress)

My husband is a serial offender at sitting sprawlingly at the table, chair pushed right back into the throughway and being completely oblivious to me squeezing past behind him, when if he just tucked his chair in, I could pass freely. I tested him once - I squeezed past ten times in a row and he didn't notice. Completely oblivious.

Then my dad came to stay and did the exact same fucking thing.

I've done everything - asked nicely to please move, shoved the chair, asked firmly, yelled, smacked him on the back of the head every time I go past to remind him. He.Still.Does.It.

AAAARRRGHHH!

I got this up three times on my bike yesterday. I had my toddler on the back too It was a young man, a woman, and an older man, all three of them cut in way too close. I was furious.

In contrast, we'd gone out the day before and DH had taken DS on his bike. Wide overtakes and indulgent smiles all around.

Man + toddler on bike seems to = ahhhh

Woman + toddler on bike seems to = two lives less important than my journey.

Totally agree this happens, but most of my experiences have been with women and all of them happened when I lived in North London for 2 years.

What's worse is on occasions that I've tried to stand up for myself by not moving out of their way and carrying on in my direction (I'm clearly not a hindrance - I don't walk whilst staring at my phone and I'm a very fast walker), I've been spat at/ been physically pushed/ or received verbal/even racist abuse. These have ALL come from women. Whenever it's happened with a man they generally haven't followed it up with even more abuse, not that that makes the initial 'shoulder shoving' okay though.

I hate it. Honestly though, I think there's just too many ignorant, arrogant and extremely rude people out there rather than it just being a male thing. What a sad world we live in!