How common is it for men to push women out of their way in public or hurt us if we don't move quickly enough?

[AskBasil]

The two news stories this week, about the jogger who threw a woman under a bus in Putney Bridge and the cancellation of the woman's only swimming session, has made me think about how often I've been quite literally pushed around, by men in public.

When I go swimming, I am frequently overtaken by men who should get into the faster lane with the other men if they want to go at the pace they are going at; quite often they'll kick me or shove me aside as they overtake and I have to be really careful that they don't surprise me and make me swallow water and start flailing. Luckily I know men sometimes behave like this, so I'm prepared and it doesn't affect me, but I've seen other women get out of the pool because they don't know how they can carry on using it safely with an entitled nobhead in it.

I've also frequently been literally walked into by men as I was walking along the street. When I was young and realised men did this, I would look out for them so that I could avoid them hurting me. Which is their point isn't it - they are giving women they do this to, a very clear message that if we don't submit to ceding the space they are demanding from us, they will use their greater size and strength to hurt us.

It's a very subtle (or perhaps not so subtle) form of male violence, or at least male dominant behaviour against women - they tend not to do it to other males, unless they are generally violent and the other males are smaller and they estimate, weaker than them.

Then they can use their male privilege to deny that they're doing it and women are imagining that they're doing it.

I'm very small - under 5ft - so I used to put it down to that. But having discussed the Putney bridge incident with friends, a lot of much taller women than me are saying they too, have frequently been pushed aside, barged into, walked into and sometimes it was obviously deliberate. One friend said she was really shocked to be barged into by a woman once as it's so unusual, whereas men barging into her is par for the course.

I dunno, I suppose I'm just wondering how common it is, I thought it was just me.

The reason I'm asking is because for many years I genuinely thought it was just because I am short, but I am starting to hear so many stories of how men use their size and strength to intimidate women out of the way.

Also buggies and pushchairs - I think one of the reasons men hate them so much, is because they can't walk into them. They interfere with their claiming of space because they enable women to claim the space without the threat of being physically hurt by men. Men can't hurt us when we walk along the street pushing buggies unless they make it really obvious that that is what they are doing deliberately and so they resent the presences of those buggies.

I'm 31 weeks pregnant and every morning drag myself right up to the end of the train station platform to hopefully secure a better chance of getting a seat. It takes me ages because of sciatic pain. On several occasions I've had able bodied men barge in front of me as the doors open. That's not physically pushing but it still feels intrusive, for someone to casually cut in front of you like that (and take the first, most accessible or sometimes only seat). And it is men, far more often than women.

Once I had a man in Waitrose yank my trolley out of my hands because it was in the way of the onions. He could have just asked me to move it and it felt really hostile. I mention that this was Waitrose because it is generally full of rude pricks.

Being rude is one thing, but being entitled and sexist is quite another and I'm surprised you can't see the difference - are you 4?

Migraleve you are not wrong but in general, or in my own, experience women do not tend to be physical but rather more verbally rude.

I can honestly say I haven't experienced this with men but many times with women

It seems that they don't realise that their bag on their shoulder is the width of another half person so when they walk paste quickly it's a big shoulder bump from their bag. So I sort of have to half jump out the way to avoid it.

Just an example, if you sit next to a woman on a bus the default is that she will move slighty away from you to avoid contact.
Men tend to spread their legs because, you know, their testicles are so large and important.

And yes I think it needs a name. Like manspreading.

Of course women do a version "manspreading" too, in that some women take up more than their fair share of space. But they are just common or garden rude women, they are not supported by a whole structure of an assumption that they have the right to that space. That's the difference between manspreading and common-or-garden rudeness. When men do it, it's not considered rude because it's normal; when women do it, it's seen for what it is - rudeness.

Same with the barging. When women do it, it's completely obvious they're being totally rude. When men do it, women wonder whether they got int their way. And usually, we don't notice that they are doing it in the first place, because we know it happens, we look out for it and we've trained ourselves to move out of their way. Which is why they do it. We don't even notice that we do it, it's so automatic, whcih is why when men do make contact with us, it is usually utterly malevolent because they have targeted us, that's the only way we haven't been quick enough to take our ordinary evasive action.

What shall we call it? Manbarging? Manspaceing?

I've only been barged and shoved by women (or attempted to be shoulder barged by male 'tuff yoof').

I have found that adults will happily shove ds (whose 13) out of the way. Again mostly women.

Men are more vocal but I just challenge my inner Glaswegian and yell back.

Oh and the manspreading whilst swimming - yes. I swim a lot and in our pool there is a one swimmer - one lane rule (private club). I get so sick of men with their acrobatic thrashing, taking up half of the adjacent lanes too. OK, if the lane is a bit small, fair enough, but if you should move out of someone's way as you approach then, not just carry on battering through their lane as well as your own and making physical contact with them as if you were Michael bloody Phelps at the Olympics.

Again, only men who do this IME.

I live in a rural area, so often not very crowded. But I do notice it on the road.

Whether the space is mine, or theirs, many men get aggressive. Far more than women.

So if a man is meant to yield whilst I continue, I get them edging forward or even deliberately coming into my space, so there is a stand-off.

Or, far more often, they might yield, when they don't have to, but then toot, or gesticulate wildly, shouting at me to 'come on, ffs'. Whilst I'm actually driving forwards.

But by far the worst offence, in a man's eyes, is if I correctly judge the dimensions of my car relative to the space I'm driving in.

Timing my exit from a road turning left, is such a heinous crime if it means I haven't waited for a full minute to allow them to drive past first. I've actually had men speed up behind me (neatly demonstrating exactly how far ahead of them I am) to tell me I cut them up!

I've been driving for decades, cars, scooters, and racing. But some men get equally hysterical over women being both too cautious, and being too confident. As long as they're women.

I'm not saying they don't do it to other men too, but there is a particularly short fuse reserved especially for women.

There are THOUSANDS of women In this country just as rude as all of the men mentioned above

I doubt that.
Elbowing someone out of the way, sure I can imagine women do that.

But frogmarching someone away from a stall she wants to look at ... um, no. Women, as a class, are not raised with the sheer entitlement they'd need to be so fucking disgusting and violent.

Besides, you know, women wouldn't DARE to be so VIOLENT towards people who, against women, can fight back much better than against men.

I've been road raged many times all blokes.

One objected to me getting the last space in a car park. He entered the car park behind me so it was definitely "my" space. He shouted, swore and I felt threatened. I took his number and the police visited him later. Apparently his wife wasn't too impressed with him.

I was screamed at by an older man when I was working at a polling station. Apparently he wanted me dead.

No this wouldn't happen to a 6 foot well built bloke.

Testosteroving?

PS I never get any of the above when I'm with my 6'2", 17 stone DH (who wouldn't say boo to a goose anyway)

TBH I only noticed that I moved out of the way of men after reading a thread about it on here. Then I decided I was going to stop. Like Fortheloveofscience, the look on men's faces is priceless. To be fair I have had no aggressive reactions, they obviously didn't realise that women make way for them and do move when they realise I am not going to

Yes, I think most men don't actually barge into women, they are either

a) normal and considerate and well-mannered and therefore negotiate the space in a normal manner or

b) not so considerate but not actively malevolent, just so used to women moving out of their way, that they don't even realise it's happening.

Love the term testosteroving.

Apart from cyclists on pavements I can't think of examples of this being done deliberately or aggressively other than one very recently at King's Cross station where a woman barged into me from behind and swore at me when I tutted at her. The concourse wasn't crowded.

Cyclists on pavements are more likely to be men. I glare at cyclists and if they are coming towards me refuse to move out of their way and will say pavements are for pedestrians.

Meant to say, for the non-malevolent men who don't actively barge into women, this is again male privilege in action, in that they find their lives much easier as they don't have to negotiate space as much as they would if they were women.

Women melt out of their way, they perambulate through the crowds and don't realise the effort that is going into them being able to do that without bumping into women, by women themselves.

And yeah, we do it so automatically that we don't realise we do it.

Also buggies and pushchairs - I think one of the reasons men hate them so much, is because they can't walk into them. They interfere with their claiming of space because they enable women to claim the space without the threat of being physically hurt by men. Men can't hurt us when we walk along the street pushing buggies unless they make it really obvious that that is what they are doing deliberately and so they resent the presences of those buggies.

That's interesting.
Buggies and pushchairs enable women to take up space while at the same time performing femininity, so men cannot criticise it openly.
I can see how that might make them extra angry.

My response would be to buy an extra large, oldfashioned baby carriage to take up more space.

dd and I have been pushed by a 'city type' into the side of the train.
I am tall and have perfected the rubgty 'not moving an inch' type of grounded standing in such situation.
the man was furious and started shouting at me for being rude.
I didn't say anything. but the train attendent asked the man to leave the train.

it happens a lot, but usually in subtle ways.

Against the grain, I have never been pushed out of the way etc by men, women have done it to me though.

I feel like I have dropped into the twilight zone. I've worked in major European and US cities including London and NY and never experienced any of this. Nor have I experienced it driving. Maybe I have an aura around me? Resting bitchface perhaps?

I have never been pushed out of the way etc by men

you propably have made, unconciously, swerved a bit to avoid it. try not to do it one afternoon in a busy area. you will be amazed.

Hmm, I think it's a size thing. Big strong people tend to not look where they are going, with the confidence that others will get out of their way. I'm small and slow (use a stick) and it's always big people who back into me or walk sideways into me.

People don't tend to walk straight into me; on the odd occaision I just don't move; Fortunately shoving a disabled person out of the way still seems to be unacceptable.

This was common growing up. At school all the time, barged, shoved. It was utter crap.
The worst though, was on London Underground escalators- a man fucking lifted me (by holding me under the armpits like a toddler) to one side so he could get passed. I mean what dire emergency made him think he could touch me at all just to get passed me quicker? It was utterly intrusive and infantilising. The real kicker was he was stood waiting for the train when I got to the platform.
I wish, wish, wish I'd have said something, even if it was 'fuck off' but I was in total shock.