Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

[CheeseBubbles]

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

"You don't get to ride roughshod over my feelings with your personal view any more than I do."
But I'm not. I acknowledge that some rapes are about power. That's respecting your feelings, and experiences
Whereas you're telling me that rape is always about power as an end goal, which contradicts some of my experiences.

So a man and a woman are together and the man wants sex but at some point the woman says no. The man does not want to be a rapist but he still wants sex.

If in that moment he continues and he rapes the woman, he chose to put his desire for sex before the woman's right to body autonomy. If he didn't think or know that he had the power to do that then he would have done what most men do and he would have stopped and respected the woman.

So while yes, he is using power to get sex, he isn't actually getting sex. He is committing rape.

At that point I don't actually care what his motivation was nor what his opinion is of it now.

Tbh this thread is beginning to disgust me.

Poor men. Being so fucking misunderstood.

If a man doesn't want to be lumped into the rapist category then it's pretty simple, don't commit rape. Rape is always about power because it always involves a man asserting his power. His motivation does not matter.

Scrumple was involved in a direct exchange and responding to my point. The point is that I disagree what is more harmful and I won't be emotionally blackmailed over it.

I'm not ignoring it. I don't think it's as relevant as you do, scrumple.

There is a definite sense that some people feel that people shouldn't say that rape is always about power. I think it's a semantic issue and that it is important to acknowledge the intrinsic role of power in the act of rape.

Sexual intercourse and rape consist of the same physical acts.
So yeah, when a perpetrator penetrates a woman with his penis, he is having sexual intercourse by raping her. And she is having sexual intercourse against her will, in other words, being raped.

"Poor men. Being so fucking misunderstood."
I have no idea where you've gotten that from, rock. No one here has had any sympathy for men.

I'm honestly really upset that I'm being viewed as a rape apologist for recognising that the rapes I have experienced have had these two differing motivations on the part of the perpetrators.

If in that moment he continues and he rapes the woman, he chose to put his desire for sex before the woman's right to body autonomy. If he didn't think or know that he had the power to do that then he would have done what most men do and he would have stopped and respected the woman.

So while yes, he is using power to get sex, he isn't actually getting sex. He is committing rape.

YY. Exactly this.

"I think it's a semantic issue"

A semantic issue that made me go years before being able to admit to myself that certain experiences I had had were in actual fact, rape.
Which I found damaging. Hence why this is an important issue for me. And I see no harm in recognising the two different motivations either.

I certainly haven't called you a rape apologist. You are entitled to frame rape in whatever way makes sense to you. But I believe it's wrong to say that rape isn't about power. It is.

I can't speak for you, but it is obviously very difficult to come to terms with being raped and I don't think it's generally feminist theory that is primarily to blame. I think that societal rape myths are the greater problem.

And I do see harm not in recognising different motivations but in downplaying the power aspect.

If it's about power, then why don't men do it to weaker men? Or beat women more instead of raping them? Why do men who commit date rapes, and marital rapes, not go out and rape the elderly, and the incapacitated?

It's because it's not always about power.

There are rapists who do the above, and for them it is about the power. But there are far, far more who merely use the power they automatically have as natal males in society, to get what it is really about: sex with the person they sexually desire.

Sexual intercourse and rape consist of the same physical acts. So yeah, when a perpetrator penetrates a woman with his penis, he is having sexual intercourse by raping her. And she is having sexual intercourse against her will, in other words, being raped.

This is so many colours of wrong.

I have sexual intercourse with my husband.

I was raped by my rapist.

I understand that you have had to frame rape in that way in order to make sense of it. And terms of law may frame it this way. But it is whitewashing the psychology of rape and in a way it is reducing experience to mere logic.

I just cannot see how it would be helpful to understand the differences in motivation. At the point where the act becomes rape the motivation becomes irrelevant.

Men do it to weaker men to exert power. But most violent men are not homosexual and find the idea repulsive and they can beat men up instead.

And men do rape elderly and incapacitated women. And those men may or may not find sexual pleasure in doing so.

I am not denying that many rapes are about both power and sexual gratification, but rape is fundamentally an act of power. It is never benign or justified or understandable. I know that's not what you are saying but that's what other people may interpret the message that "some rape is just about sex" as. Hence my concern.

Why do men who commit date rapes, and marital rapes, not go out and rape the elderly, and the incapacitated?

Because those types of rapes are easier to convince oneself and others that they aren't really rape. Or the woman wanted it. Or its her wifely duty.

I am not calling you a rape apologist, but your way of framing this is suggesting that there are two levels of rape. There aren't. Rape is rape. Rape is about power. We can dress it up as being about sex all we want, but in the end it is about power.

And also, men do rape weaker men and men do beat women.

Sexual intercourse and rape are literally the exact same physical act. Rape is literally non-consenting sexual intercourse. In other words, physically it is exactly the same.

But I understand that you may have had to frame it differently in order to make sense of it

As for why it's helpful to understand the difference: men who do it for power are sociopaths who will not ever stop trying to hurt people in some way. That kind of rape can't be prevented. But the type that is sexually motivated can be prevented, via educating boys' about women's bodily autonomy, consent, eliminating misogyny, banning porn, and so on.

I have never said "rape is just about sex".

"Men do it to weaker men to exert power. But most violent men are not homosexual and find the idea repulsive and they can beat men up instead."

Exactly. The men for whom it is about power, do it. The men for whom it is about sex, don't.

" your way of framing this is suggesting that there are two levels of rape"

No. Not levels. Types. The sadistic and power motivated, and the entitled and sex motivated.

Why are you determined to reduce rape to a semantic point? That may be how you get through your day but it is bloody damaging and is ignorant to other women's experiences.

I am shocked that you can't see that.

"Why are you determined to reduce rape to a semantic point?"

How am I doing this?

"it is bloody damaging and is ignorant to other women's experiences."

And I have found your position to be "bloody damaging" and ignorant to other women's experiences. Why can't you see that?

I haven't denied anybody's experiences, but you all seem keen to deny mine

It's exactly what you are doing. I explained why I think it is wrong to suggest that there are rapes with no power element. It is not true.

The men for whom it is about sex, don't.

That is not my point - my point is sexual orientation for those men is stronger than the desire to exert power in that particular way.

I have not once denied that rape is often about sexual gratification (not "sex" which implies a mutually consensual act) but argued that these acts are still acts of power. We can still educate about consent while recognising the role of dominance and power inherent in the act of rape.

Entitlement is about power as well.

Your faces and your calling out of other posters until you realised we had been raped too is sickening.

Your insistence that rape and sexual intercourse is literally the same thing, while it may be factually correct, is reductive and is a slap in the face.

I can be as pragmatic as the next person, but there are some things that just do not need to be reduced in this way. I would expect it in a court of law, I do not expect it on a feminism forum.

I was not personal until you tried to dismiss my view and those of others because you did not deem them suitably qualified to comment on a thread about rape.

I am trying to understand your position, though from your faces I can tell you don't think I am. But your position is damaging. And pointing to mine doesn't change that.

Whereas you're telling me that rape is always about power as an end goal,
That might be whats caused this entire misunderstanding. No one has claimed power is the end goal of a power rape.

Power, Anger and Sadistic are the three recognised types of rape, as they describe the characteristic of the assault.
It is not a reason to stop educating people about consent.

Tbh this thread is beginning to disgust me.

Poor men. Being so fucking misunderstood.

^well that, never happened. So I can't even address it.

If a man doesn't want to be lumped into the rapist category then it's pretty simple, don't commit rape. except any man who doesn't commit rape for power isn't a rapist by your definition, and had been absolved.

Rape is always about power because it always involves a man asserting his power. Except for when it's not. Or when a teenage boy buys in to the rape culture that says women really want it, you just have to pressure them because they don't want to be seen as 'slutty'. I genuinely believe there are men out there who would be horrified if they realised that they were rapists.

Some of you have been really offensive, really personal and out of order.

Whatever you think of my opinion I don't deserve shit for disagreeing with you. i haven't hurt anyone.