Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

[CheeseBubbles]

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

Are you addressing your comment to me, DJ? If so, I never said it wasn't still rape, etc. In fact, the sex-motivated sort can be more damaging psychologically in the long term.

"I think again this is a semantic point."
Possibly, Venus. For myself, I felt Cheese is trying to highlight the way rape is often claimed to be about "power not sex," and how that phrasing can be an issue. Which I can agree with, because while I agree with you that power is intrinsic to being able to commit the act, rape is not always "about" power. It's often simply about sex (via power.)

I think that the stated motivations of a rapist are pretty irrelevant tbh. Does it really matter that he didn't intend to exert power and only wanted the sexual gratification? If he really needed the gratification then he should have had a wank.

So while I understand the point that is trying to be made about motivation, I think that it is a dangerous road to go down. No matter what the motivation was, the man still made the choice to exert power over a woman. At that point it became about power and the initial motivation is no longer relevant.

No matter what the motivation was, the man still made the choice to exert power over a woman. At that point it became about power and the initial motivation is no longer relevant.

Agree. And that power is fuelled by a sense of entitlement. The woman's views, feelings and autonomy is irrelevant to his sense of entitlement.

And as someone who has experienced rape from both, I think it's dangerous to cast all rapists as sadists doing it purely to get off on the power.
Because it makes it possible for men who were motivated by sexual desire and a lack of respect to exclude themselves from the class of 'rapist', because they didn't do it because of power at all.
And it makes it possible for victims to believe that it wasn't rape, because it had nothing to do with power.
I'm bowing out now, though. It's too personally upsetting to me to see people arguing "rape is always about power," when perhaps they have never experienced how that framing of rape can be very confusing and damaging to the victim.

I was raped by a man who had no intention of considering it rape.

I have no issue with acknowledging that his initial motivation was "just sex" but the second I said no and he used his body weight to keep me there, pinned to the bed, he was making a choice to use power over me.

And in the decade that followed where I had problems with accepting that I wasn't to blame were exacerbated by his attitude towards the whole thing. Which in itself was another abuse of power.

So please don't try to dismiss other posters on this thread before you have the full story of what they have been through. Anyone can debate this, anyone. It's not just for those who have been raped.

I'm arguing what I'm arguing because I agree with rockshandy that ignoring the power aspect is a dangerous road to go down. I am not ignorant about rape.

Yes my first rape by a virtual stranger was pretty much the same scenario as rockshandy. My second rape (and I only started to perceive it as a rape a few years ago) by my abusive partner, was more sadistic in nature.

No one is ignoring the role of power, here.

Then why keep trying to say that there are rapes which aren't about power? I think we're speaking at cross purposes here.

I didn't deny your point, I said it was an issue of semantics.

But you are trying to downplay it in certain scenarios which just isn't acceptable.

Power is not physical violence. It is not aggressive or in your face. It is a calm and measured knowledge that he is in control and that the woman is merely a thing to be used for his pleasure.

Saying that sometimes it is just about sex only provides another excuse for men who rape. Sex is not rape. Rape is rape. At the moment things turn the act is no longer sex and is now rape. So while it may have began as sex, it ended in rape and rape is always about power.

I've been replying (as others have) without suggesting you're being obtuse CheeseBubbles, you're making interesting points but I don't fully agree.

No you didn't at all! I was kind of joking that I think some posters feel that way.

But you are trying to downplay it in certain scenarios which just isn't acceptable.

Absolutely no one is downplaying rape.

Saying that sometimes it is just about sex only provides another excuse for men who rape

How so?

"Saying that sometimes it is just about sex only provides another excuse for men who rape.

No it doesn't. Saying that it is always about power makes men for whom it was not about power, (and their victims,) unable to identify it as rape.

"Sex is not rape. Rape is rape. At the moment things turn the act is no longer sex and is now rape. So while it may have began as sex, it ended in rape and rape is always about power."

No it isn't.

There is a difference between using power to gain what one wants, (sex,) and something being " about" power as an end goal.

I'm not denying anyone's experiences. I'm not denying that power is not used to commit rape, nor denying that it is often the end goal. I am merely saying that in my experience it is harmful to frame rape as being purely about power.

I'm sorry I disagree with you and personally feel it is more harmful to frame certain rapes as being about sex without considering the power inherent in the act.

"But you are trying to downplay it in certain scenarios which just isn't acceptable."

How is anyone downplaying rape? Talking about differing motivations behind perpetrators actions is not downplaying it at all.

So you feel it is harmful for women to accurately frame their rape experiences, and perpetrators' motives, Venus? That's really depressing, actually. To be told that recognising the differences in the motives of the men who have raped me is somehow harmful to women, when in fact it was being told that rape is always about power that harmed me.

(And I have never denied the role of power.)

Did you see my analogy? What do we consider is a reasonable sexual desire that isn't about power? Strangling women clearly isn't. But it can be a sexual desire for some men. I did that to point out the absurdity. Rape is a moral transgression. It's a choice.

You don't get to ride roughshod over my feelings with your personal view any more than I do.

There are no reasonable sexual desires without consent! No one is saying that.

You can frame it any way you like, obviously. I am arguing an objective point which may or may not be correct. And I believe it's harmful not to consider that rape is always an act of power.

"It's a choice."

And sometimes it is a choice fuelled by power or sadism. And sometimes it is a choice fuelled by sexual desire.

In both cases, it requires entitlement and ability. In both cases it is wrong (obviously.)

But the motivations are different. One does it in order to hurt a person, because they can and hurting people gets them off. The other does it in order to take what they believe they are sexually entitled to.

I haven't and I don't think scrumple have once said "you". Just that we disagree with th way it's spoken about.

Several posters have said you now and I'd say calling someone a rape apologist or saying we are downplaying rape" is riding roughshod over someone's feelings

The point I was trying to make is that sex is not rape. Gratifying sexual desires is only legitimate where there is consent. Overriding someone's will is an act of power,