Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

[CheeseBubbles]

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

Much on this thread seems to be more widely about abuse in intimate relationships - not just sexual, but emotional, psychological, financial.

The effort put into keeping the victim in a state of vulnerability takes a huge amount of planning, thought and effort. It's not just about feeling entitled, it's about being committed to putting in the effort to constantly undermine another person.

"How is this comparable to sex and rape? A rapist enjoys raping people. There isn't some benefit they get that is entirely separate from the act of raping, in the way that there is with murder."

In some cases, rapists get off on hurting the other person and welding power over them, via sex. That's the equivalent to a serial killer.
Others simply disregard the other person's feelings because they think they are entitled to sex for whatever reason, and thus use their power to have sexual intercourse (rape.)

"I don't understand this compartmentalisation, where someone's physical enjoyment of an act can be completely decoupled from the wellbeing of the other person. If someone enjoys sexual acts in such conditions, holding power has become so intertwined with their sexuality that sex is always about power for them, whether they are raping someone or not."

That's not at all the case. A man may think "well, it's only 2 minutes of thrusting and then I'm done and oh so happy, and as it's hardly any bother to her and makes me really happy, she should do it."
Nothing at all to do with finding power thrilling. And still just as much rape, and just as wrong.

We shouldn't have to paint rapists as power-hungry, othered monsters to recognise that rape is an awful, devastating crime.

That is not how anyone else sees it. Saying "all rape is about power" does not mean that.

I said it was, and why. You said it wasn't, but didn't say why. So I'm asking why. And you are repeatedly refusing to answer.

Goodness. Rape is not sex because if it was, it wouldn't be rape...given it's without consent. So it becomes a different act. Someone who's being force fed isn't having a bite to eat.

"People shouldn't rape others regardless of the motivation."

No one has said otherwise.

"Rape is fundamentally an act of power over another person and this fact should never be left out of any programme to educate men and boys about sexual consent."

I never said that the role of power should be left out.

I have said that I personally was in actual fact harmed by the" rape is always about power, not sex," framing.

"You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

On the example you gave about a teenage girl and her boyfriend is quite vexing. My opinion is irrelevant, yours takes precedence over all."

I was talking about my own experiences there, so yes, my opinion should take precedence. I apologise if I was not clear about that.

Scrumple, a person getting practical benefit from a murder gets that practical benefit in a separate time period/situation to the murder. It is a consequence of the murder, not part of the murder itself.

If someone gets sexual gratification during a rape, that is part of and during the rape. It isn't a consequence of the rape that they get at some later point.

'...as it's hardly any bother to her and makes me really happy, she should do it.'

But this is power. To believe other people should do things because it is what you want and then insist they do them is power.

"That is not how anyone else sees it. Saying "all rape is about power" does not mean that."

Right, so I'm the only person in the world who saw it that way, and was harmed because of that?

"Goodness. Rape is not sex because if it was, it wouldn't be rape...given it's without consent. So it becomes a different act. Someone who's being force fed isn't having a bite to eat."

Someone who's being force-fed is in fact eating, though. Against their will, yes, but they are still consuming food.

In the case of rape vs sex, it's often the same physical act, but with vastly different psychological consequences.

I have said that I personally was in actual fact harmed by the" rape is always about power, not sex," framing.

I'm sorry but that's emotional blackmail. It's you that is behaving like a transactivist. I am a rape survivor too and I will not stop describing rape as an act of power as I believe suggesting that there are rapes where power is not involved is HARMFUL.

My point, Sylvia, is that some people commit crimes because they get off on hurting people. Others commit crimes because they want something, and are willing to hurt people to get that thing.

"But this is power. To believe other people should do things because it is what you want and then insist they do them is power."

And when the attitude goes both ways in a relationship, is it still power? No. It's just fucked up and wrong. Imo.

A large part of avoiding abusive relationships and getting out of them is being able to see the many ways the abuser creates a situation of power and control.

I don't see how it is helpful to frame these things as not about attempting to assert power is helpful.

Please stop this semantic pointlessness. People are meaning other things to you. "Power" does not equal evil sadist.

I don't see how it is helpful to frame these things as not about attempting to assert power is helpful.

YY.

"I'm sorry but that's emotional blackmail. It's you that is behaving like a transactivist. I am a rape survivor too and I will not stop describing rape as an act of power as I believe suggesting that there are rapes where power is not involved is HARMFUL."

I'm not asking you to stop saying that it is an act of power. I'm not saying that it's never about power, and I'm not denying your experiences. I'm saying that sometimes it is not about power, in my experience.

But apparently my experiences are harmful so I should shut up about them?

Scrumplestiltskin

You have crossed a line now on this thread and I won't be engaging with you further.

I am sorry for your experiences, and I am sorry that you feel you need to continue to place the onus on your rapist for how those experiences are framed in your mind.

But I cannot engage with it any longer.

'My point, Sylvia, is that some people commit crimes because they get off on hurting people. Others commit crimes because they want something, and are willing to hurt people to get that thing'

But in the act of rape you are literally getting off while hurting someone.

I mean that is what it comes down to. Are you the type of rapist who gets on raping people or the type who gets off while raping people. The distinction is wafer thin.

And yes, of course two people in a relationship can both attempt to victimise the other through power. This is hardly a revelation, is it?

That should say:

Are you the type of rapist who gets off on raping people or the type who gets off while raping people. The distinction is wafer thin.

But apparently my experiences are harmful so I should shut up about them?

Did I say that? You're going further than just sharing your experiences and posting your opinion. You are trying to stop others saying that rape is fundamentally about power. People disagree with you. They are allowed to.

"Please stop this semantic pointlessness. People are meaning other things to you."

It's nice to know that my experiences are semantic pointlessness.

Honestly, it's incredibly upsetting that a thread full of feminists is eagerly piling on to silence someone who is simply trying to say sometimes it is not always about power, and framing it that way hurt them as it prevented them from acknowledging the rape.

I'm not trying to deny anyone's perspectives on their own experiences. I'm not trying to say rape is never about power. I'm not trying to silence anyone. I'm also done with trying to argue my point with people who insist on telling me I'm wrong about my own life.

I'm not saying that it's never about power, and I'm not denying your experiences. I'm saying that sometimes it is not about power, in my experience.

And I and several other people on the thread think you are wrong.

In the case of rape vs sex, it's often the same physical act

It is not because one party is not consenting. They are being violated, dehumanised, objectified and attacked. They are powerless. This is not sex.

Scrumple, you're not being silenced. You've posted a lot.

If you state a whole load of acts which other people consider to be abusive acts of power, and then you say they're not, it's not just about you and your life. It's about many women trying to leave abusive relationships.

You are as I said trying to ride roughshod over my feelings with your own personal opinion. Using the fact that you have framed rape in a certain way. The fact that I disagree doesn't mean I am dismissing your experiences it means I don't personally agree with the way you have framed it.

Like I said. I'm done. Thanks for the constructive feminist discussion, wherein I've been called a rape apologist and repeatedly told I'm wrong about the things I have experienced, and moreover to speak about my experiences is harmful.
It's been wonderful.

Seriously how PA. People are allowed to disagree with you without you insinuating that it's the fault of people thinking rape is about power that made it difficult for you to process your experiences.

You don't seem to realise that you are using emotional blackmail to push your view on people who don't agree.