Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

[CheeseBubbles]

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

And yes, I think actually there are a lot of people who do have a dismal idea of sex. If we expect women to be as in to it as men you don't have to think about any of this. Anything less than hell yes would be seen as a no. But I don't think a lot of Men and women's do see that as the natural way.

Meaningless semantics is used to dismiss lots of feminists arguments.

A lot of things are used to dismiss feminist arguments. That has no bearing on whether this particular point is meaningless semantics.

The point is that you cannot uncouple power from rape. It is fundamentally an act of power. It can be about both sex and power, or just power, but it is never just a sexual act and encouraging the belief that it can be is dangerous.

Rape springs naturally from the underlying (even subliminal sometimes) widespread belief by societies, cultures, religions etc. that woman is "the lesser". A bit inferior, a little less human. Dehumanise someone and anything becomes possible. Dehumanise a whole sex (I refuse to use the word gender) and rape is just another way of exerting dominance.

Rape is fundamentally an act of power, I'll agree with that, as without the power to rape, you cannot rape.

But the motivation of the perpetrator is often (usually) not power, but acquiring the sexual satisfaction they desire, without regard for the person they acquire it from.

They want sexual satisfaction via sex, and have the entitlement and misogyny to think that acceptable, so they use power to acquire the sexual satisfaction that is their end goal.

This is different to rapists who rape with the end goal of acquiring sexual satisfaction from the degradation of another person, and from having power over another person, not from the sex act itself.

In the latter case, the sex act is a means to an end (getting off on power and/or degradation,) and in the former the power/entitlement is the means to an end (getting off via a sex act.)

Exactly what scrumpltiskin keeps phrasing much better than me.

A lot of things are used to dismiss feminist arguments. That has no bearing on whether this particular point is meaningless semantics

I don't think the intention to rape and why it happens is meaningless. I think it's really important to understand.

Sometimes it's just a woman's going along with it because she'll not have a miserable husband for a week

If she hasn't given consent and is ostensibly going along with it for this reason then the husband is abusing the power he has over her - the power to pressure her to ensure he's not "miserable", the power to persist and the power to get what he wants without any respect for her autonomy.

But the motivation of the perpetrator is often (usually) not power, but acquiring the sexual satisfaction they desire, without regard for the person they acquire it from

I'm no expert but I'm not sure about this. I think the power over the victim is part of all forms of rape, maybe in some (stranger rape where it's intrinsic) more than others but always there.

I think I have found a way to explain myself.

So lecherous old man stare down a 17 year old as she walks past him. Let's her see him looking her all over. He is literally getting off making her uncomfortable. This is clearly a power play.

Second scenario lecherous old man looks down at his paper and waits for her to pass. Then ogles her from behind. Either way he isn't still a disgusting human but I would feel the motives are different in the second scenario.

Used literally wrong. Let's ignore that.

CheeseBubbles that's an interesting example as that 17 year old has been me recently a few times (although with men of different ages). The first example is definitely power and intimidation, a reminder of your worth and putting that little thought in your head that it's up to him how far he wanted to exert that power over you. The second I agree is objectification first and foremost although still the knowledge in the man's mind he has the power to judge and ogle a girl in that way. I think there is still power there though just in his mind rather than overtly showing you he has it.

Husband sulks if he feels he isnt getting enough. Also a power play.

People need to learn to recognise their own emotions, and name them.
We all feel all the emotions at some point. They drive our behaviour. Ignoring them does not make them disappear. It doesnt teach us how to manage them or control our responses.

Entitlement is power. Without power there wouldn't be the entitlement.

I feel like people are missing the the difference between the method, vs the motivation.
In both cases, power is what makes it possible to rape.
But in some cases the rapist needs to exercise power over another human being in order to get off sexually on the power, and in other cases the rapist uses the power in order to get the sexual satisfaction that they want.
Again, I think that claiming that all rape is about power and not sexual desire is like saying all child abusers are pedophiles. As CheeseBubbles has said, it 'others' the perpetrators and makes people disbelieve that 'nice' and 'ordinary' men could do these terrible things. It's not helpful imo.
I've been raped by men who get off on the power itself, and men who just want sexual satisfaction at any cost, and there is a difference, imo. And it doesn't help victims to recast all rape as purely about power, because then when it isn't about power, victims feel like it isn't really rape.

You've done a very good job on thread of explaining what I mean scrumpl. To me they're two very obvious, very distinct distinctions but not everyone sees it the same way obviously. I'm not going to post on this thread anymore as I feel people think I'm being goady at worst or obtuse at best!

I've been replying (as others have) without suggesting you're being obtuse CheeseBubbles, you're making interesting points but I don't fully agree.

I think all rape is linked to power and that is a motivation (to different degrees) but Scrumplestiltskin's post has also made me think about it. I don't want to articulate it badly but I feel that there is always some element of power in rape, not only in the ability to commit it but in the carrying out of such an abhorrent act.

I have never said that rape is never about sexual desire and that is not what I believe. But it is always about power.

If someone has the sexual desire that they can only find sexual satisfaction through strangling women to death, is that just about sex? They wouldn't do it if they could avoid it. It's very sad but they need sex, right? Nothing personal.

The comparison is ridiculous because you can't rape a person quietly from behind without their noticing.

I know exactly what you mean, Cheese, and I think it's an important difference to highlight.
Both motivations are equally harmful, but the power-motivated sort are (imo,) the serial abusers/rapists who will never stop. The sex-motivated sort of rapists are the ones who can be prevented from ever offending, via the teaching of consent, respecting women's autonomy, etc to young men before they get that entitled attitude .
And the sex-motivated ones are often defended by their victims, or otherwise fly under the radar and go unaccused, because they don't fit the script of "rape is about power, not sex."

And it doesn't help victims to recast all rape as purely about power, because then when it isn't about power, victims feel like it isn't really rape.

That's because rape myths are prevalent in society. Not because rape isn't about power. I am also a rape survivor btw and I feel as strongly about my beliefs about this as you do about yours.

I agree that male entitlement is a cultural problem. That doesn't mean that it isn't a display of power to act on it.

I've been raped by men who never recognised it as rape, and never saw it as an exercise of their power.
They used their power to get sex, but the power was a means to an end, and completely irrelevant.
They wanted sex with a woman, and they would do whatever it took to get it. It was the sex that was the goal, the focus, and the relevant factor. Not the power it took to access the sex.
I've also been raped by men who got off on the power, and used the sex as a way to get off on having power over, controlling, hurting, and degrading women.
The two feel very different to me. But perhaps that's just my experiences.

He 'has sex', she is raped. Its still rape. The man claiming his feelings are hurt when its labelled rape (because he didnt punch her) is adding insult to injury.

If men dont understand power and privilege, it makes it more important to teach men about consent, not less. They arent animals, they can control themselves, and they need to know what coercion is and not to do it.

I think again this is a semantic point. What you are categorising as "about power" I would see as sadism. I am quite aware that some rapes are more about sexual gratification at another's expense and some are more about sadism. I see rape as fundamentally an act of power. It is intrinsic.

We live in a society where being able to sleep with a woman confers power and status to men. Therefore sex is an achievement to them and an exercise of power.

"Rape is power" is not just about sadists, it's about the difference in status between the raped and the rapist.