Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

[CheeseBubbles]

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

If there's three types of recognised rape and one of them is an explicit manifestation of power and motivated by power, in the other two power is still an intrinsic part of a man's ability to commit rape. He might be motivated by anger at his wife who didn't get his dinner on the table when he gut through the door, but the rape is a punishment, and you need power in order to punish someone.

^Whereas you're telling me that rape is always about power as an end goal,
That might be whats caused this entire misunderstanding. No one has claimed power is the end goal of a power rape.^

This whole conversation no one has disagreed that you need power to be able to rape. Just that it wasn't why it was about. The motivation for the rape. So yeah, of that's not why people believe why are they arguing it?

Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

The question is asking if rape is ever "just" about sex.

The answer is no.

Not even for a teenage boy who believes girls want it. Lack of educating oneself is never an excuse.

If there are men out there that would be horrified to discover they are rapists then good. They are still rapists though. Just the same way that a murderer is still a murderer no matter how many times they say sorry.

I haven't aimed anything at the OP of this thread. But if pointing out the dangerous and disturbing nature of what is being proposed on this thread hurts you I am not sure what you would like me to say about that.

Rape is never OK and there is never a "lesser" type. Even if that is not what you think you are doing, it is the message you are sending out.

here are men out there that would be horrified to discover they are rapists then good. They are still rapists though. Just the same way that a murderer is still a murderer no matter how many times they

Who is disagreeing with this? Point them out to me.

Who said there was lesser rape? You're making shit up and really starting to piss me off.

I am pissing you off by saying you are wrong?

Ok then.

It is a fact that men will admit to raping women or that they would rape if you eliminate the word rape from the question.

Add the idea that rape is a power struggle to the mix and there are a lot of men who don't know they're rapists. Women who don't realise the 'sex they didn't want' is actually rape.

I'm not saying that's a lesser crime I'm saying we're making it easier for boys to not see their actions as rape. How the fuck that means I tiered rape or am letting them off it I have no idea.

I want rapists to understand consent completely I don't care about their motives which I suspect like all human motivations are varied and confusing.

This isn't about the rapist, it's about victims

No. It's the making shit up that's pissing me off.

Which I did say

I am not making anything up.

You keep coming up with these scenarios where somehow a man rapes because he "just wants sex" and none of them are about just wanting sex. A teenage boy who just wants sex but goes on to rape because he believes girls are nymphomaniacs still feels entitled and he knows he holds power.

Men are socialised into that. They are socialised into believing that men are superior to women.

IMO taking the word power out only minimises the shit women have to put up with.

Saying that men don't want to admit they are rapists and that they would realise they are if only power was out of the equation is ridiculous. Ffs give men credit too. They are not idiots guided by their dicks no matter how much we peddle that myth. They all have choices, and in every single rape they have chosen to exercise the power that men have over women. Every single one.

Did I once say there was a lesser type of rape? I said there were different types, some of which you obviously see as lesser. I don't. So you've assumed something. I've repeatedly refuted it. That's the definition of making shit up.

There are studies to back the claim that men don't realise they're rapist. That's true. Rapists jumpmout of alleys and attack. That's what society sees as rape.

So if you tell a husband who repeatedly rapes his wife that he is a rapist even though he didn't think he had power, you really think he is going to identify with that?

Really?

A man who disrespects his wife enough to repeatedly rape her, whether by force or through coercion is not about to turn himself around because we allow him to clarify his motivation.

Come on. I get the semantic point you are trying to make, but do you honestly believe that there is a place for this discussion that will never overlap with rape apology? Do you seriously believe that telling men they weren't meaning to exert power will make them own up to being rapists?

I have known one rapist in my life. Every other man I know is a kind, caring and sensible person. Most of them believe rape myths and most of them are clearly misogynistic by default due to the way they have been socialised. But they still manage to not be rapists.

Every other man in your life bar one is good and not a rapist? Unless you live on a female island with one man, you must know that's not true right?

Come on. I get the semantic point you are trying to make, but do you honestly believe that there is a place for this discussion that will never overlap with rape apology? Do you seriously believe that telling men they weren't meaning to exert power will make them own up to being rapists?

If you get the point I'm trying to make incant understand the vitriol from your posts. I am not a rape apologist. I don't care what the reason is a man hasn't for raping. I have said this repeatedly. I'm curious as to why this is feminist orthodoxy because it doesn't ring true in my experience. Everything should be up for discussion (if you're not being a GF)

I hate that we can't discuss things anymore because people get angry. you're called a bigot if you talk about trans politics or a rape apologist for questioning things. I'm a feminist I hate the rape culture we live in. I'm disgusted and hurt by the posts on this thread

I have very few men in my life. My reaction to being raped has been to tighten my circle and no matter how irrational it may be I generally find men intimidating and I find their superiority complex hard to take. Sadly once I opened my eyes to it I see it everywhere.

I get the point you are trying to make but I consider it to be a dangerous one. While I don't consider you to be a rape apologist I think you are skirting very close to it.

The point is that if it's possible to educate boys about rape then it's possible to educate boys that rape is an act of power and entitlement and different from sex.

And don't say that you can't talk about it and are being silenced Cheese. This whole thread is predicated on the idea that I shouldn't say rape is about power, when I believe it is. We disagree. I feel the emotional blackmail is coming from the other direction.

I know I have known two rapists. The two men who have raped me. I have probably met more than that, I realise that, but I can't say because I don't know. The women I know who have been raped, I never met their rapists. I don't see that this is relevant. Some men rape and others don't. Why do you think the ones who don't, don't?

Sadly once I opened my eyes to it I see it everywhere.

YY.

Not going to add too much to this thread as the excuses being made for rapists are making me angry. Just want to say venus I agree with everything you say.

If rape isn't about power, but just about sex, why aren't there huge numbers of women sexually assaulting men?

No one is saying rape doesn't require power.
No one is saying that rape that is motivated by sex is any less harmful.
No one is saying that there aren't rapes motivated by power.

But as Cheese has said, to frame rape as "about power" rather than "requiring power, but sometimes about sex not power," can make it difficult for victims to recognise rape as such.

And no one is making excuses for rapists, ffs.

"Your faces and your calling out of other posters until you realised we had been raped too is sickening."
All I said was that perhaps other posters may not have experienced both types of rape.
And the faces are because I find your dismissal of my differing experiences as harmful to be really unbelievable.

Its a fallacy to think that men will stop raping if we stop calling it rape.

I think that if you have to repeatedly clarify what you are not saying you probably need to have a hard look at what you are saying.

It might help you to categorise your rape experiences, but that is not a helpful thing in a wider sense because it is dangerous.

When a woman is raped she should never have to consider the motivation of her rapist.

The moment that sex is refused and the man continues on, it is no longer sex. That is the message we need to be teaching men and boys. That once they are ignoring the wishes of the other party, they are committing rape and they are doing so through power. The original motivation is gone at that point because when the woman loses her right to body autonomy, the man loses his right to frame the discussion as to what it was all about.

Why is this not going in? Why are we still seeking excuses for rapists? And that absolutely is what is going on here no matter how many protests that it isn't.