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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why so much trans bashing on MN?

577 replies

leighdinglady · 02/05/2017 15:26

I just don't get it at all.

Why do I see threads every day on MN which spout hatred and fear about the trans community. What's everyone so scared of??? Literally hundreds of posts of people talking like trans women are somehow a threat to biological women.

For a social platform which is meant to be friendly and approachable, this really stinks.

OP posts:
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Bambambini · 06/05/2017 12:36

This comment explains exactly many young transfolks thinking on sex and attraction.

"If you say 'I will not date a trans woman.' Guess what, that's transphobic. That's not rape culture, that's you being shitty. If you say "I would date a trans woman, but not one with a penis' —I question why you're reducing someone to just their genitalia, but sure. That's fine.

However, just referencing a refusal to date trans woman as a whole (with no knowledge of said genitalia, looks, etc) — that is definitely transphobic. And that's the point most make in that discussion."

Bambambini · 06/05/2017 12:53

Culty, culty manupilative ideology. This is the ideology snd thinking that these TAs want to push in schools and on young children/kids. It's brsinwashing, it's their own dogma. It's not what we say - look at what thes TA's and allies are saying, what they want to push as the moral norm.

"Blanket statements about being unequivocally not attracted to a particular type of person are discriminatory. Saying you don't want to date black people because you just don't find them attractive is racist -- it's okay to have internalized feelings like that, because we all do, since we're conditioned that way, and no one should be having sex they don't want to have. BUT, if you're not challenging your own hang-ups and desires and working out why you have them in the first place, then you are absolutely contributing to a culture of prejudice.

It's true that people can be attracted to one gender and not another, and we typically define that attraction as sexuality. Women who like women are said to be lesbians. We don't say it's discriminatory that they don't like men. But, trans women are women. If you're saying you are "not attracted to trans women," you are saying trans women are not women. So which is it? You don't like penises, or you don't think trans women are women? As far as I'm aware there is no socially or scientifically understood category of "vaginosexual."

To put it another way; if you fall in love with a woman who is caring and kind and funny and beautiful and smart, and then discover she has a penis and you are no longer interested because of that alone or no longer see her as a woman, yes, that is transphobic and shitty. The "rape culture" argument is incredibly disingenuous and frankly insulting to victims of sexual violence everywhere; no one is making anyone sleep with anyone. You can sleep whoever you want, you just better think about why you like the things you like."

OlennasWimple · 06/05/2017 13:03

I would hazard a guess that for someone experiencing body dysmorphia to the extent that they have expensive and complicated surgery to have a body part removed, their feelings for said body part are somewhere between ambivalence and revulsion. So they don't entirely understand why someone else might see that body part as an essential part of having a sexual relationship with them

Datun · 06/05/2017 13:56

OlennasWimple

I would hazard a guess that those who have gender dysphoria are not the ones complaining about lack of a female dating pool (mostly).

The ones with AGP will be the ones who are making it political.

I suspect most female trans-allies will know members of the former group, whilst not realising it's the members of the latter group who are bandwagon jumping.

I don't think it takes long to be around someone with AGP without realising how dodgy their motivations are.

LoiteringWithinTent · 06/05/2017 13:59

I'm wondering how to help DD2 with this one (lesbian, keen not to be shouted at, has at least one FtM trans friend she'd prefer not to upset). It will absolutely definitely come up at sixth form, if her older sister's experience is anything to go by.

I'm thinking she could try a straightforward 'I don't have a sense of a gender identity, so I don't think we'd have much in common', like I used to need for fending off religious types.

Is gender atheism going to get her head bitten off?

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 06/05/2017 14:01

The bottom line is surely that the only - the only - person who ought to have any say in who a woman allows close up and personal with her vulva and vagina is the woman herself. That anyone could seriously suggest that they ought to be able to make the woman reflect about her choices, change her mind, etc. etc. is male privilege shrieking like a fucking banshee.

In one sense it is political, though. Biological preferences around choice of sexual partner are so basic, so fundamental, so unavoidable, that they are the emperor's new clothes moment that should make the whole edifice of gender identity come tumbling down in the mind of even the most hand-maidenly of supporters. So of course trans activists want to turn this into a political issue as well as a rapey-as-fuck issue - it is a political issue, and (as always) the battleground on which these men's rights activists in new floaty feminine clothes want to fight their battles is the battleground of women's bodies.

Datun · 06/05/2017 14:02

LoiteringWithinTent

Does her FtT friend buy into the 'male lesbian' description?

Datun · 06/05/2017 14:03

I couldn't agree more m0stly. Which is why I find it unfathomable any female could buy this bollocks.

LoiteringWithinTent · 06/05/2017 14:04

I don't know him/her well enough to say. The friend is a child who was self-harming before transition, bursts into tears a lot and doesn't talk much (they aren't a couple, just classmates).

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 06/05/2017 14:21

Datun, I think the reason some young women buy into this bollocks is because it's a new version of a very old issue. Since time immemorial, societies have cast women's sexuality into the good/bad "she's the gatekeeper who doesn't want it but doles it out reluctantly to a man who is sufficiently worthy"/"she's the loose woman" dichotomy, and I think even now a lot of young women are still conditioned to think of their own sexuality in terms of the extent to which they can please men (I'm always taken aback, for instance, at how many erotic stories written by women for women centre round the act of giving the man a blow-job). So telling women they should be casting their sexual preferences in terms of what men want (wear this push up bra, learn to deep throat, learn to pole dance, learn to fake an orgasm so his tender little ego won't be hurt) is nothing new - and sadly, for many women, the idea that sex should be about their own pleasure and that they are allowed to say no to sex which they don't want is still revolutionary. Hence telling women that they should suck dick to avoid hurting the gender feels of an autogynephile doesn't shock young women who've already got used to the idea that the whole point of their sexuality is to please men (I'm using the word autogynephile in preference to MTT, as I think there are a lot of MTT with genuine dysphoria out there leading quiet lives who are being thrown under the bus by the autogynephile trans activists - and I have no quarrel with genuine MTT. It's the ones who want to replace biology with gender feels and remove all women's spaces that I have a quarrel with.)

Datun · 06/05/2017 14:28

It's usually transwomen who get fired up over lesbians not sleeping with transwomen. Followed by female trans-allies.

If your daughter's FtT friend is political she may have an issue. If she is attracted to women (and in my mind, is therefore a lesbian) she may not have an issue at all.

In terms of other people. Unless your daughter is robust, I would suggest she doesn't say too much at all.

I will copy and paste a part of an interview with the transwoman where she was asked questions and answered them. She muddies the waters and none of it is logical, but it will give you an indication of what the party line is.

I've never heard of the term gender atheist, although I like it. But your daughter will need to bear in mind that it really doesn't matter what she says, anything that is even slightly off script will be jumped on.

The poster who asked the questions below is under the impression that the person who answered them (a well known transwoman), is either in denial or doesn't understand the pressure transactivists are applying.

Q: "Why is it transphobic and exclusionary for a woman born woman to claim the status of 'real woman', but it's perfectly okay for transwomen to claim the status of 'real woman'?"

A: Both cis and trans women are real women, and both are women born women. Often "real women" is code for cis women. If you use it to actually mean real women, cis or trans, go for it!

Q: "Why is it transphobic for me to proudly call myself a woman, but transwomen are allowed to proudly call themselves women?"

A: Nobody is suggusting you can't call yourself a woman if youre a woman. That's one of the things we're fighting for. Too often trans women are falsely accused of being male due to stereotypes and prejudice.

Q: "Why is it transphobic and exclusionary for women born women to say they're only attracted to certain genitals/people/sexes, but it's perfectly fine for transwomen to say they're attracted to certain genitals/people/sexes?"

A: No matter how you're trying to word it, what you're really trying to ask has nothing to do with sexes. What you're asking is "why is it wrong for a majority group to avoid or be averted to the marginalized group?" If someone tells you their sex was misidentified at birth, and you find yourself averted to them, you have internalized stuff to deal with.

What we're saying: "If you are attracted to a woman and find yourself averted to her upon learning she's trans, you most definitely have transmisogyny and transphobia to work through."

What we're not saying: "You must sleep with every trans person, past or present, whether you like it or not."

Q: "Why is refusing to sleep with someone (a woman born woman refusing a transwoman, for example) considered violence? Isn't it violent/rape culture to try to force or guilt trip someone into having sex with you?"

A: Once again, trans women are women born women. Having your sex misidentified doesnt change it. On another note, nobody is suggusting you have to sleep with anybody. But if, let's say for example, you want to sleep with a woman then find out she had her sex misidentified at birth and you now find yourself averted to her. You don't have to sleep with her, but if that's what makes you averted you may want to ask yourself why, and deal with the sterotypes you have about trans females.

Q: "Why can women born women not talk about their periods, birth, vaginas, and breasts, but transwomen can talk about their "girl dicks", "lady cocks", "clitties", and post-op vaginas?"

A: Nobody is suggusting you can't talk about them, just acknowledge women arent the only ones with those characteristics.

Q: "Why are we othering women born women by calling them menstruators, vagina havers, cisgender, pregnant people, etc, while transgender women are just called 'women'?"

A: Cisgender literally means you had your sex correctly identified at birth. Also pregnant people or any of the other terms arent referring to you personally, they're referencing that all sexes have members who share those traits. An important thing to acknowledge.

Q: "Why is it acceptable for transwomen to say violent things against women born women, disregard gendered violence, and openly state they don't care about 'cisgenders', even though women born women and young girls are raped and murdered and forced into slavery every single day, now and throughout history?"

A: I'm beginning to think you have never met a trans woman or girl in your life.

Q: "Why is it okay for transwomen to tell women born women that they aren't real women, or that transwomen are more woman than women born women?"

A: Okay, now I'm sure you never met a trans women or girl in your life. Plus, this whole time you are suggusting trans females arent real females, and now youre complaining some woman is saying cis females arent real females and now you're upset?

Q: "Why are so many people pressuring gender nonconforming folks (masculine girls, feminine boys, etc) to transition rather than realizing that any one of any gender can break stereotypes and still claim the sex they were born with?"

A: Trans girls, like any girls, can have a wide variety of interests from any gender norm, same with trans boys, and non-binary children. There is no correlation.

Q: "Why is a large portion of society okay with this new form of misogyny? Why is raising honest concerns automatically transphobic? Why is it considered feminist/revolutionary to silence women and girls?"

A: Supporting marginalized women and girls is the exact opposite of misogyny.

sticklebrix · 06/05/2017 14:41

Datun that is hair raising. The interviewee's sense of entitlement is breathtaking.

Datun · 06/05/2017 14:48

Smug, evasive, arrogant and smug.

And evasive.

With arrogance.

Datun · 06/05/2017 14:48

Smugly.

LoiteringWithinTent · 06/05/2017 15:00

Cripes!

OK, now, I would definitely baulk at all of that. Surely someone so very, very into all of this must know that they are the sex they are, and that that's biologically male, whatever their gender.

TalkingintheDark · 06/05/2017 15:09

Transwomen are women born women????????????

I do "get" it actually. It's the ultimate TRA ideology that MTTs aren't actually even born in the wrong body, because the measure of womanhood is one's internal "essence" and that actually overrides biology so you can be biologically male with not even any adjustments, and remain so ad infinitum, but still claim you're a woman - once you subscribe to the idea that there really is this internal essence (which, while there is breath in my body, I will never do!!) then it's a kind of domino effect as every bit of truth, reality and biological fact just gets knocked down on top of the last bit.

I "get" how their supposed logic works but as it all rests on a fallacy it's still the same steaming pile of entitled, misogynist, lesbophobic, arrogant, deluded, reality-denying, male-privilege-emanating horse shit as always. And yes, smug.

TalkingintheDark · 06/05/2017 15:11

Oh yes and did I mention female-sexuality-controlling? Yy M0stly

AppleBlossomTimeNow · 06/05/2017 15:12

Datun - thank you for your excellent post.

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:29

I'm not a massive fan of memes, but sometimes they say it all.

Why so much trans bashing on MN?
OlennasWimple · 06/05/2017 15:33

Quick straw poll: who here is surprised that 90% of the trangender candidates seeking public office in the US and internationally are MTF? That good old male socialisation just keeps showing through...

I agree that we need greater diversity amongst the people who represent us politically, but I am wary of MTT candidates who claim to be representing womens rights (not trans and womens rights, I could get behind that, I think)

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:38

LoiteringWithinTent

That question and answer session was an example of the doublethink being put forward as logical and desirable.

It's one of the few that doesn't contain violent abuse, rape threats, utter denial of biology, saying biology itself is cissexist and just a helluva lot of shouting nastiness.

You need to prepare your daughter.

If the subject comes up, with even the slightest degree of political intent, almost anything she says that does not embrace the ideology, will be pounced on.

And it can get very nasty, very quickly.

A few months ago we had another poster on here with a daughter of 15 who had come out as a lesbian. By saying she didn't want to sleep with a transwoman with a penis she was vilified by her peers and ostracised on social media.

It's not necessary for your daughter to take a stand. Especially if she shies away from confrontation.

Much as I want to encourage women to stand together over this, a young woman embarking on A levels is not one of them.

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:42

OlennasWimple

MtTs do not represent women's rights. They barely represent trans rights.

They're not campaigning for their own bathrooms, their own rape services, their own anything. They want women's. There is a direct and profound conflict.

Why so much trans bashing on MN?
OlennasWimple · 06/05/2017 15:52

Yeah, I know Datun. At least if a candidate said "trans and women's rights" they would be acknowledging that there is a difference, which would be a big step forward for many MTT

I doubt very much Sophie Cook will be elected in Bournemouth as she is contesting a very safe seat.

Datun · 06/05/2017 16:02

OlennasWimple

Bah. Maybe I'm cynical. I just don't buy it. There are enough female MPs who don't understand feminism. Someone socialised as male, in my opinion will, at best, just not get it. And at worst, disagree.

Look at that twat Philip Davies.

"Philip Davies, who has long campaigned against what he calls “feminist zealots”, said the committee should simply be renamed the “Equalities Committee”.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-davies-feminism-women-equalities-committee-renamed-remove-reference-a7558926.html

And he doesn't even have the hidden agenda of ceding all women's rights to men saying they are women.

Datun · 06/05/2017 16:30

LoiteringWithinTent

The transwoman who answered those questions has won a human rights award and a youth leadership award (as well as being a sex theorist- whatever that is).

The reason I'm telling you is because the nonsense she peddles, that they all peddle, has been accepted for quite some time. Particularly in the LGBT community.

Lesbians are particularly persecuted by transwomen.

Transwomen who remain attracted to women want to have sex with women, (obviously). They can't target heterosexual women because heterosexual women don't sleep with 'women' and therefore their new found identity would be invalidated.

Lesbians, particularly, have come in for all the doublethink, upsidedown logic, and rapey pressure.

Older lesbians are a bit more robust about it. They call a spade a spade. Because they have always been told that all they need is a proper dicking. This is just more of the same old.

They are afraid for young lesbians in this day and age. They want them to know that being a butch woman, or being a woman attracted to women is perfectly wonderful. It doesn't mean that you are either trans or that you should be expected to sleep with transwomen.

They want young lesbians to embrace their homosexuality, their womanhood and lesbian history.

And they are taking a massive stand.

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