Why so much trans bashing on MN?

[leighdinglady]

I just don't get it at all.

Why do I see threads every day on MN which spout hatred and fear about the trans community. What's everyone so scared of??? Literally hundreds of posts of people talking like trans women are somehow a threat to biological women.

For a social platform which is meant to be friendly and approachable, this really stinks.

Not once has a transgendered person ever had any impact on my life.

Well, that's nice for you, leighdinglady, but that's not the case for other women, for example:

• women who need single-sex facilities (hospital beds, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis counselling) and who cannot get them because there are people with penises who are claiming to be women making those facilities mixed-sex facilities.

• vulnerable women who end up in prison, only to be made more vulnerable when they end up sharing facilities with male rapists and males convicted of other very violent crimes. (This is already happening - I can post a list of you are interested.)

• women who apply to women-only colleges, or for women's scholarships, only to find that people with male bodies, socialised and educated with male privilege, are ahead of them in the queue.

• women who have survived male violence and who have very good reason to be wary of men in enclosed space, who cannot use public lavatories, gym changing rooms or other single-sex facilities without fear because they are now forbidden to challenge males coming in to them.

None of this is "bashing". It's reporting the material fact of women's rights being eroded.

I'm with Tunnocks too.

This feel like one of the last safe spaces to talk freely.

Okay leigh can I ask you a genuine question then, because this is where I begin to feel I can't follow things. Why is it offensive to discuss the notion that trans people may not all actually be trans, and it could, in fact, be something else that's causing their 'wrong body' type feelings?

Offensive? Really? To ask a question? That's why I think this is genuinely scary. Because to ask a question is to be wrong.

leigh - look up Stephonknee - who has advised the Canadian government on trans issues.

You can't tell me Stephonknee isn't a fetishist.

Hmm, well I'm a transwomen and I disagree that there is any trans bashing here.

What I have seen however is quite a lot of concern about self identification (and quite frankly I'm worried about that too) and the negative impacts self identification can have on women.

There is a huge difference between someone with body dysphoria which has lead them to think their body is wrong and their sex is wrong and someone like Danielle Muscato who has made no effort to transition but still demands everyone accepts him as a woman or they are bigots otherwise.

Not once has a man raped me. It doesn't mean men are never a threat.

There are lots of things that don't affect my life but I still think it's wrong and would campaign to change it. For example, if rights were removed from Jewish or Muslim women. I'm not either of these but I want to live in a society where they have equal rights to Atheist or secular women.

It's not all about me.

So I'm concerned that transactivists wants to remove rights from women and girls, even thought it hasn't affected me yet.

I am concerned that women I know may have to share a prison cell with a violent sexual offender with a penis.

I'm concerned that girls and women I know will have to compete in elite sports against people with the heart, lungs, skeleton and muscles of men and boys.

"Do I think that lesbians should learn to suck a cock"????? WTG

You might be shocked by this, leighdinglady, but lesbians are being told that they are bigoted and transphobic for not sleeping with transwomen who have entirely male bodies. There are plenty of transwomen on social media who have not transitioned at all (most transowmen still have their penis) and who make a great deal of their "ladysticks", describe their penis as "female body parts" and so on.

I think you may be labouring under a misapprehension of what trans means. Some transwomen have SRS and just want to have a quiet life, like everyone else. Other trans activists - the ones driving the political agenda - want to be able to keep their penis and their whole package of male privilege, and still be able to steal women's spaces and resources.

newstateswoman I said it was offensive to name call

I agree there are issues to be discussed but like a poster below, I find the tone of the threads quite dark. I'm not saying trans women ARE women, or that they have the same issues as women (they have other issues of course) I'm saying I hate to see so much fear. It's the fear which evidences a lack of understanding.

Transwoman.

FFS I give up.

By which i mean, in response to the OP saying that a transwoman has never impacted on my life, that just because something hasn't happened to ME doesn't mean that it's of no concern to society in general.

I'm saying I hate to see so much fear.

What fear is this?

Not much idea about the fetishism issue, but it seems that some very serious academic research (someone called Bailey ?? and possibly others) supported the theory that a large sub-set of MTF trans people were auto-gynaephiliacs.

Of course, that is just the kind of material that people who are bigoted about trans people would seize upon. That is not a reason not to allow the claim to be discussed, in the same way that The Bell Curve, suggesting black Africans are, on average, intellectually inferior to other races, is still in print and still discussed.

If freedom of expression is to mean anything then it has to mean that we still allow for discussion of uncomfortable, even dangerous ideas. We can separate that from how we actually treat people affected by those ideas in real life. Any orthodox Christian is likely to believe that homosexuality is a sin and proscribed by the Bible. It needn't follow that they are hostile to and discriminate against gay people-they can hate the sin and love the sinner.

I'm not saying trans women ARE women, or that they have the same issues as women (they have other issues of course)

Right.

Therefore why is it wrong to object to a transwoman is the female toilet?

The trans agenda is a huge threat to biological women. If you can't see how, perhaps you should spend a bit of time on the feminism board reading the finer details. Women's sport, safe spaces, no platforming, teenage girls being told to ignore males in changing rooms, etc, etc.
Trans activists are also a threat to gay rights. Some parents are transing children who would likely grow up to be gay. It's a fucked up situation based on pseudo science.
I'm glad I have Mumsnet to alert me to what is happening.

No, it's not a lack of understanding. It's actual fear.

I understand the issues. That's going to be fuck all use if though really, isn't it, if we're at a point in time in society where I'm forced to call a man a woman, or be trolled, doxed or abused on social media, or worse.

I'm not saying trans women ARE women

leighdinglady then according to current trans activism you are a horrible bigot and transphobe. If you posted that in your own name on social media then you may well get death threats, people telling you that you should die in a fire, people making phone calls to your employer trying to have you sacked for your horrible bigotry, and so on. It's happened to other women.

Current trans dogma requires that you say "transwomen ARE women", and slavishly follow it to whatever conclusion that means, however nonsensical or dangerous the consequences.

It was being prompted to recognise gender as sex role stereotypes that really made me question the whole subject.

It pisses me off that women are forced into certain stereotypes when all that makes us different is our biology. For someone to come along and say well, I like all those stereotypes so I must be a women is quite galling. No, those don't make you a woman any more than me not performing them stops me being a woman.

I absolutely believe that everyone should be able to present how they wish without fear of harm or discrimination, gender should not be forced on anyone. This has got nothing to do with biology.

Regardless of their intentions, which I would assume are perfectly innocent and not seedy at all, I do not want to share a lockeroom with anyone who still has a penis.

That's not an unreasonable or trans-phobic position to take.

OP, what do you think about transwomen being allowed to compete with women in sport?

What do you think about the fact that Danielle Muscato took up space in a women's shelter because he identifies as a woman despite not transitioning in any way?

What do you think about the new CPS guidelines for schools which state that if a boy identifies as a girl then he should be allowed to use the girls toilets and changing rooms even if he has made no effort to transition? What do you think about the fact these new guidelines state any girl who objects could be guilty of a hate crime?

What do you think about the fact that lesbians are being hounded, harassed and labelled bigots by trans activists if they don't want to have sex with a transwoman?

What do you think about the fact that transwomen who have committed crimes are being sent to womens prisons? Interestingly, all of these transwomen all appear to be sex offenders. I'm sure that is a huge coincidence however....

I do not consider anything I have written on MN as trans-bashing, and I have posted a fair bit. MN is one of the few places where you can ask questions and ponder the consequences of this societal change.

So, you want to know what I'm afraid of? What consequences I think should be considered?

For me, the one that brought the whole trans issue to my attention was SELF IDENTIFICATION. It is proposed that all that will be required for a man to be legally a woman is that they fill out a form and register as a woman. They can keep their penis, their beard, continue to dress like a man, make no physical changes, no social changes at all - but they will legally be able to enter all sex-segregated spaces and nobody will be able to object. Well they will, but they can then be charged with a hate-crime.

So, leighdinglady - you tell me why a predatory male would not see self-identification as a golden opportunity? It 'costs' him nothing to self-identify as a woman. He won't have to make any changes to his life at all. No hormones, no surgery, no dresses, no make-up. Hell, he can keep calling himself Dave!

Oh, and if you don't think this could happen, may I introduce you to Danielle Muscato? Yes, he continues to look like that. And the words on his photo are his.

leighdinglady if it's any consolation there are plenty of people who think as you do... I think some of these posters feel this is their last "safe space" to air their views. I think their fears are disproportionate to any threat (in substance or number) and the people they are threatened by or raise as examples are the exception, not the rule. Not that it isn't worth discussing therefore but you get lots of weird posts here.... Posters just because we may support people transitioning doesn't mean we think gay women should "suck cock". Talk about straw man arguments, and "if you don't like this crazy person you must therefore agree with our views". I'm tired of it and find the fascination with going over a hundred times the tiny slice of what they find acceptable just weird and perverse. Just write out your gender constitution already

I haven't found it worthwhile discussing with them because it comes thick and fast here :( Some people have more fear than empathy, that's all

If Danielle muscato is such a threat to your being, why aren't you more effectively discussing the issue direct with them? Why rally against posters here? Unless you can come up with a raft of names of these "threats" no ones going to give a rats arse about your fears of some randomers you've found on the Internet

I'm yet to find a satisfactory answer to one of the points I'd seen on a thread a week or so ago.

Stereotypes are bad. Everyone seems to agree that.

Trans people can only 'pass' or transition by conforming to a gender stereotype of the sex that they wish to imitate.

You don't see mtf with short hair, no feminine clothes, no make up ever, no boobs etc.

Are we or they saying that that is all it takes to be a woman? That women that don't fit that mould aren't women?

You also never see a ftm who likes to have long wavy hair, loves glitter and pink and shopping.

Are men who like those things not men?