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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Cis labels

261 replies

sooperdooper · 24/04/2017 21:57

I'm kind of new to reaching 'Peak Trans' and I had this thought...

So if, as the trans lobby keeps repeating 'trans women are women', why would they need to call biological women 'cis'?

If they really are female there would be no need for a distinction because by simply 'identifying' as female they would be

So they've made the distinction themselves by labelling biological women cis, doesn't that make the whole discussion about 'trans women being women' invalid by their own admission?

Sorry if this is totally obvious but I'm trying to work through my own thoughts on this

OP posts:
WhereYouLeftIt · 24/04/2017 22:18

By calling us 'cis', they attempt to make us a subset of women. So instead of women and transwomen, we move to women and cis women. See the difference? I think it's called 'othering'.

TiggyMP · 24/04/2017 22:38

I don't think anybody has ever said "Women and cis women". They might say "cis women and trans women".

You're right when you say "Women and cis women" would be othering. But "Women and trans women" is as well. Either use a descriptive prefix to describe both parties, or don't use any.

Original poster
sooperdooper · 24/04/2017 22:39

But aren't they 'othering' themselves, how can they say they're women if they are also saying biological women are cis and they are trans - it contradicts their whole argument

Or do you mean trans activists would want to take the title of women for transwomen and redefine biological women as cis?

OP posts:
TiggyMP · 24/04/2017 22:45

Many of them would say that both groups are women. But as it would be really confusing when talking about many trans related issues, both groups should have a prefix so neither gets othered.

And some are happy with trans women. Transwomen is a bit weird though. Do you know any blackwomen? Or Gaymen?

Miffer · 24/04/2017 23:29

The argument is transwomen (notice no space) are actually

trans women (with a space). In the same way you have disabled women and muslim women you have trans women and cis women. All are women but sometimes an additional descriptor is necessary. Cis is needed otherwise us vagina owners would become "default" women and what about the menz?

TalkingintheDark · 24/04/2017 23:45

Fancy us daring to think of ourselves as default women! Tsk, tsk. We'll be claiming to be actual human beings next. The cheek of it.

Miffer · 25/04/2017 00:14

www.dailykos.com/story/2015/6/16/1393668/-I-am-not-an-Anti-Trans-Activist-I-am-the-victim-of-Anti-Cisgender-Activists

Interesting account of what happened to a gay activist when he declined to identify as Cis (he gets into again in the comments). It's a couple of years old now and some of it does come across as teens bickering on FB but still quite horrifying.

venusinscorpio · 25/04/2017 00:35

Give it up Tiggy. Not going to call myself cis as I fundamentally disagree with it. And the only way I'll use the word "women" at all is if I call them "transwomen". This is because I consider them male. Not going to change.

But I'm starting to think that the word "women" shouldn't ever be used. A mile has been taken where an inch was given. It's taken as an endorsement of actual womanhood where it is merely politeness. So transactivists can pat themselves on the back for that.

TalkingintheDark · 25/04/2017 00:39

Tiggy, how do you understand the word "woman"? What is this concept which can be prefaced equally by black or white or disabled or middle class or working class or trans, and still make sense?

What is your actual definition of woman which fits all those (and all other) categories of women? Without resorting to a circular definition?

What is it that all women have in common?

venusinscorpio · 25/04/2017 00:46

And some are happy with trans women. Transwomen is a bit weird though. Do you know any blackwomen? Or Gaymen?

They aren't actually women though. That's the whole point. For all this sophistry, they are trans identified males.

soapboxqueen · 25/04/2017 00:47

I'd argue it's so that TAs have control over vocabulary used. They can refer to themselves as trans/women/female we must accept the cis label imposed. We must accept their definition of women. We must call them women but be policed over our correct usage of the word trans. While we are tying ourselves in knots trying to say what we mean with a language that is constantly shifting.

Miffer · 25/04/2017 00:54

Here is an interesting comment from the link I posted.

If you are not transgender, you are cisgender
Period. It's not a pejorative term, has nothing to do with your primary identification as being a gay man. It's like saying you are short or tall.

Staggering. How nobody added "Or a man or woman" in response is a shameful missed opportunity.

RonaldMcDonald · 25/04/2017 01:16

I was told off for saying men and women as it is trans unfriendly
I had no idea

Datun · 25/04/2017 01:25

I strongly suspect that the agenda is to start referring to transwomen as women, and women as cis.

I would say I doubt it will catch on, but cis woman as opposed to just woman is now becoming increasingly more prevalent.

HorridHenryrule · 25/04/2017 01:59

Cis gender has been around since the mid 90's. Trans in Latin means cross over and cis in latin on this side of.

GoldStars3 · 25/04/2017 02:27

Yeah, Horrid, we know. I'm cis, so that means that my internal sense of identity is 'on the same side' as the gendered roles, interests, assumed abilities, behaviours, and presentation appropriate to my sex, according to patriarchy...

...said no feminist ever. No fucking thanks.

TiggyMP · 25/04/2017 07:29

I've never ever heard anybody use "women and cis women" Datun. I think it's unfair to criticize people for what you've decided they will do in the future.

Original poster
sooperdooper · 25/04/2017 07:43

Nope still not accepting this cis nonsense, women doesn't need a prefix because if you're an adult female by default you're a woman

Trans women need the prefix because they aren't default women - they're trying to make us the 'other' by giving us a label.

In the same way you have disabled women and muslim women you have trans women and cis women

No, I'd see it that if disabled women and Muslim women are female born then they all come under women.

Otherwise you're going to need to start giving people in those groups a double prefix, cis Muslim women for example?

And that's just ridiculous, women and Trans women is it, I'm not having this cis bollocks

OP posts:
Original poster
sooperdooper · 25/04/2017 07:45

Goldstars yes! That's my thoughts, feminism has fought against the gender stereotypes and 'cis' puts women right back in those boxes! I'm not and never will confirm 100% to a gender stereotype so I'm not 'cis'

OP posts:
TalkingintheDark · 25/04/2017 08:27

Still waiting for that definition, Tiggy...

And btw, I think it's unfair for TRAs to be so blatantly misogynist and homophobic. And get away with it. And be enabled and lauded by unwitting liberals who think they're supporting progress and equality.

Life just sucks sometimes, doesn't it.

Datun · 25/04/2017 08:31

Saying I strongly suspect isn't really criticising. Tiggy. But I'm probably splitting hairs because my disagreement with the premise of this ideology, is very much about what happens in the future.

Who would have thought, a few short years ago, that many transactivists would say biology is a social construct? Or that there could be a movement that advocated changing language to the extent that the acronym FGM would be disputed because of the word female in it.

Or that a man saying he's a woman is a good enough reason to grant him legitimate access to women and girls?

There is no room in the trans ideology for the word woman to remain as it is. The fact that women have to come up with a convoluted justification for being called women is outrageous. Yet it is happening. Even mainstream media are starting to use cis.

ItsCakeTime · 25/04/2017 09:12

Disability, race, religion or creed does not change biology, they're all still women

Traswomen are men.

Oh and I am not cis, I'm just a woman. My DNA says so, every cell on/in my body says so, the cat calls and sexual abuse I got as a teen says so. The lack of interest in my gyn issues says so. The tax I have to pay on towels/ tampons says so.

sonyaya · 25/04/2017 09:18

I refuse to be called cisgender.

I actually have a lot of sympathy and love for the struggle of transwomen, most of whom don't seem to be these TRAs. But I have my limits and I am a woman, end of story.

venusinscorpio · 25/04/2017 09:22

Oh and I am not cis, I'm just a woman. My DNA says so, every cell on/in my body says so, the cat calls and sexual abuse I got as a teen says so. The lack of interest in my gyn issues says so. The tax I have to pay on towels/ tampons says so.

This.

SuburbanRhonda · 25/04/2017 09:24

I have read two documents aimed at schools, talking about how to support transgender students. In one, the glossary includes the word "cisgender" and defines it as "not trans".

This is aimed at school children, so clearly the intention is to ensure the word "cis" is firmly imposed on women by the transactivist community and its supporters.