Cis labels

[sooperdooper]

I'm kind of new to reaching 'Peak Trans' and I had this thought...

So if, as the trans lobby keeps repeating 'trans women are women', why would they need to call biological women 'cis'?

If they really are female there would be no need for a distinction because by simply 'identifying' as female they would be

So they've made the distinction themselves by labelling biological women cis, doesn't that make the whole discussion about 'trans women being women' invalid by their own admission?

Sorry if this is totally obvious but I'm trying to work through my own thoughts on this

So Phylis, if Danielle is not a "legitimate" trans woman, then what are the markers of a "legitimate" trans woman?

If it rests on feelings, then I can assure you that Danielle deeply and sincerely believes that Danielle is a woman as Danielle understands women to be. 100%. It's not trolling.

If it rests on presentation, ie long hair, dresses, no facial hair, then what you are saying is that women who don't look like this aren't women either. And you know that's not true.

Mate, the emperor has no clothes on at all. Not a dress, not a trouser suit. No clothes. Nekkid. You know it. You just don't want to be "rude".

Be rude. Women need to be rude more often.

Datun

Sorry to be slow, damn work getting in the way of mumsnetting!

If there is a minority of a bigger group with a condition then the majority by definition don't have that condition. So in the total population of people once you define a subset everyone else fits into a different subset and that will have a label. So for kids with SEN we call the subset of everyone else NT.

So whilst I don't like CIS there is a subset of people who are not transgender. For me it doesn't equate to gender conforming but to sex conforming. I don't suffer from body dysmorphia,
I don't feel I should have a different set of sexual characteristics than those I have.
I'm far from gender typical and don't believe gender is inherent.
.

No one can define what is a legitimate trans person under the ideology of self definition, only the person themselves. Danielle states that Danielle sincerely identifies as a woman. I read about a Green Party conference where the panel asked for questions from women as there had been mostly men speaking, and a male stood up and said I'm a woman, I present as male but identify as female, and no one batted an eyelid.

I still don't get it. What is the motivation behind DM? I realise you don't officially have to have either AGP or gender dysphoria.

But without those two what would actually be the reason? What's the point?

Ok. ThinkAboutItTomorrow. Thank you. Although I'm still a little unclear. Are men and women not the main category and trans a subset of that?

"But without those two what would actually be the reason? What's the point?"

To get attention, to intimidate women, to "be" someone, to highlight the ridiculousness of it all, because he want a YouTube account but doesn't have anything interesting to say? Who knows.

I know everyone transitions differently, but I do find it strange how she was Dave the atheist a few years ago, commentating on Fox News & CNN. She's now in a woman's shelter. Her twitter pic and video are highlighting a jumper she's wearing that says 'Black Lives Matter' which to me feels mocking (I know there are white BLM activists). I can't connect the dots, something doesn't feel legitimate.

I half expect to read about this in VICE in a few years time.

I'd assumed Danielle Muscato was a spoof.

If you're shocked that TRAs should threaten women with rape, violence, even murder, Phyllis, I suggest a little browse on TERF is a slur, a collection of TRA abuse.

I actually had no idea what TERF was until I started posting here. I had read it online, but never bothered to find out what it meant.

Some of that language is absolutely vulgar. Some of the stuff I'm reading in 'Erasing female biology' cannot be serious. I've never read anything this extreme in my life.

Its interesting. Of all the discrimination and abuse they face and the inability to obtain adequate health care, they save their real anger for radical feminists. I've heard even seemingly rational trans say terf.

Finally! I've been trying to re-find this link, as this author absolutely encapsulates the problem with the term 'cis' for me. Beautifully argued, very logical, and makes me want to read Simone De Beauvoir’s ‘The Second Sex’.

genderapostates.com/cissexism-and-you/

"It's going back to that idea that if Danielle walked into a ladies toilet, women would say something."
And at the moment, we are able to say something. The problem is, if self-identification becomes law in this country, my saying something would be a hate crime. And I could be charged and taken to court for it.

Of course, they're planning to groom girls out of challenging an obvious male in a sex-segregated space. Someone posted a link recently to a pack being distributed to schools, so that schoolchildren can be taught to not be transphobic. (If anyone was more sensible than me and bookmarked it/know where it is, could you link please? Thanks.) Which in girls' cases, means being taught that they should suppress any discomfort the feel in sharing toilets/changing rooms with transgirls. With a bit of practice, they'll grow into women with no sense of boundaries at all. They will be sitting ducks, and males can be certain they will not be challenged. Ever.

In my experience TERF = any woman who recognizes reproductive biology. You don't need to be a radical feminist, or any kind of feminist. You don't have to even be a woman. It's just a slur.

Ok, we need biology, everyone knows it. It's how we make babies. We also need to know which people might get which diseases. So for a variety of reasons, biological sex does matter. This biological distinction also tells us, like it or not, who is more likely to commit certain types of crime, who is likely to be taller, stronger, faster.
We shouldn't have to pretend that it doesn't matter or that one can be the other, just because a tiny percentage of people have a disconnect between their physical body and what their mind is telling them, however awful that feeling is for them. Lots of people endure terrible traumas and unhappiness.
Many women have to deal with the heartbreak of infertility, I'm pretty sure they don't love their bodies; people have serious mental illnesses and lead tortured lives because of it. My son has a disease which ended his career as a ballet dancer, my daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumour at 4 years old and it's changed her life. It's all tragic.
We all have our own personal stories. As a biological woman my story includes being sexually harassed since 11 years old. I detested leaving my carefree childhood behind, being forced to behave in a certain way, be 'ladylike', the utter mortification of starting my periods at the end of term swimming gala in front of the whole school. Everything changed. I went to a mixed senior school and I hated my awkwardness; girl guides was my haven, no boys, no pressure, back to doing stuff I loved, nature, astronomy.
It makes me so angry that even this is being taken away from girls. I couldn't stand showering and changing with girls, the idea of having a boy in there too, irrespective of whether they 'identify' as a girl, would have been unbearable.
I could go on, through the next 40 odd years of harassment, discrimination, rape, fear, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause, 'women's troubles', but you get the gist. I'm a woman.
It shouldn't matter who wears what, or likes what. No one should be discriminated against. But biology matters. And womanface is every bit as offensive and appropriating as blackface. Men appropriating my womanhood makes me very angry. Sorry, that's long.

What about Alex Drummond?
Why does someone male, with a beard, who likes wearing dresses and make up, but isn't taking hormones or having surgery, happier to describe themselves as "widening the bandwidth of being a woman" than "widening the bandwidth of being a man".
Is it reasonable that Alex says they have turned a lot of women lesbian?
www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h?utm_term=.kwEBmQ6V3#.npYeBrJ2n

A small clip of Magdalen Berns on Drummond:
twitter.com/adognamedlucky/status/856682400813912065

WherYouLeftIt The CPS Schools Project is here. See also this analysis. Both are on the reference thread

Thanks Betsy. Doh, I'm really not on the ball at all today.

Good old Magdalen, says it all really, "oh fuck off you wanker". Couldn't have put it better myself!

Some of that language is absolutely vulgar.

Bless

Shit CharlieSierra. You come on here like an absolute star, fizzing with energy and information.

I know no-one knows who is behind a screen, but when I hear what some people have gone through, I'm amazed they can hold it together sometimes.

Poppy I also hate the phrase "check your privilege." It is not a race to the bottom as to who has been oppressed more and in my experience is very rarely something women say to each other, but is used by TAs to get women to STFU.

Ugh, HATE "check your priviledge". Said by men who are not even remotely concerned with checking their male priviledge.

Annoyingly, I score quite highly in the priviledge olympics (well if you ignore most other countries as TAs do), what with being a mentally ill woman - I'm even diagnosed with essentially, hysteria, so I'm an outcast even in mental health terms - yet to point this out would mean giving them ammunition against me and devalue anything I said even further. Because there is genuine prejudice there, even in activist-type circles. But if I was trans (or at least MtT), these same people would be falling over themselves to be inclusive and I could say bonkers things and they'd go along with it! I mean, we're coming up with stats and studies and facts, and they just say "yeh I'm a woman with a penis" and people agree!

Sorry for slight derail!

[As an aside, my mental health is improving gradually since becoming more feminist, reading more stuff, learning how to deal with/avoid abusive men... funny that. I suspect the mental health team would consider me beyond hope now, and the wider male world, definitely so ]

Bless? That was a bit patronising, Datun.

Datun I am fine. I think women just do stuff. We have a lot to deal with one way and another. This bollocks is one thing too much.

BBCNewsRave

My post applies to you too .

And I agree with the monumental derailing that goes on with regards to who has suffered the most.

I just want to shout I don't fucking care.

The Facebook page exposing trans misogyny is quite an eye-opener. It's a masterclass of derailing with oppression Olympics.

The women there have clearly reached peak trans repeatedly.

Most of them are at the just fuck off stage. So unfortunately, it just degenerates into a complete blood bath of who can come up with the most creative insult.

However, there are a couple of posters who are fantastically incisive with regards to explaining structural oppression. It's like a lot of the trans allies simply haven't considered it. Eg

"What on earth has the patriarchy got to do with rape and violence?"

"Women aren't oppressed because of their biology, they are oppressed because they are women".