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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Cis labels

261 replies

sooperdooper · 24/04/2017 21:57

I'm kind of new to reaching 'Peak Trans' and I had this thought...

So if, as the trans lobby keeps repeating 'trans women are women', why would they need to call biological women 'cis'?

If they really are female there would be no need for a distinction because by simply 'identifying' as female they would be

So they've made the distinction themselves by labelling biological women cis, doesn't that make the whole discussion about 'trans women being women' invalid by their own admission?

Sorry if this is totally obvious but I'm trying to work through my own thoughts on this

OP posts:
Gallavich · 26/04/2017 16:51

This is a picture of fallon fox and Tamika Brents. Fallon fox beat Tamika to the point of concussion, broken orbital bone and 7 staples in her skull.
Fallon has had full genital surgery and has been on female hormones for a long time. Yet - look at the difference in their physiques. Tamika is a powerful woman but stood no chance.

Cis labels
BBCNewsRave · 26/04/2017 18:21

Datun it makes me wonder how many of these people are incredibly rich and are pushing the agenda.

I wonder about the motivation. Getting cute kids on board to make people care? Regretting having gone through male puberty themselves? Wanting to create as many trans pople as possible to lend weight to their own claims? I suspect the main reason is to negate the argument over male vs female socialisation... then they can appropriate intersex some more - after all, most of us would feel quite differently about someone assumed to be female who discovers in their late teens, after investigations, that they are genetically male...

Henry I don't understand the fight to be called women they will never bare children, have periods or go through the menopause.

They could lower/stop their HRT and have a "menopause". Presumably they'd really enjoy the authenticity of it... Hmm

CharlieSierra · 26/04/2017 19:05

I find it hard to believe this is just about a small number of rich men who are turned on by the thought of themselves as women. I think it has to be more than that, maybe the drugs. Although to be fair I find the scale of organised child abuse utterly staggering too, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's no end to the lengths some men will go to get their rocks off.

QuentinSummers · 26/04/2017 20:03

Maybe there's no end to the lengths some men will go to get their rocks off.
I think that TBH. As well as a) total disbelief that women aren't ruled by their sex drive and don't find their own bodies sexually arousing b) total incomprehension of what being female entails.
Today I thought I might just stop double flushing when I empty my mooncup in public loos. I bet a bit of blood left in the pan would put anyone in there with a sexual motive right off Grin

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 26/04/2017 20:05

On funding, Soros is an interesting case. He has previous form for interfering in a major way in public affairs - for instance when he was one of the key players in shorting Sterling so the UK had to leave the ERM as set out here. Of course, he didn't do it all by himself - as that article points out, tying Sterling to the German mark was a mistake. But he boasted publicly afterwards about having in effect forced a democratically elected government to change its economic policy because he'd manipulated the currency markets.

So it could be simple lust for power and narcissism driving him- it would fit with his previous actions.

There's a very good book called "Merchants of Doubt" about how multinationals influence public debate - it focuses mainly on big tobacco trying to manipulate debate on public health and cover up links to lung cancer, and oil companies paying for "think tanks" and astroturfing campaigns. I'm pretty sure similar tactics are being used here. The interesting question is cui bono? I know a lot of people have suggested that it's big pharma, but I remain unconvinced - I'm on HRT for menopause, and have checked the cost of HRT drugs to the NHS, and basically they're cheap as chip.

inaclearingstandsaboxer · 26/04/2017 20:11

Just looked at Alex Drummond

My husband has longer hair, a similar beard, wore lots of eye liner in the 1970s and 1980s and has been known to wear a skirt ( well a kilt)

He doesn't feel like a woman

He says he feels like a bloke - with long hair etc........

BigDeskBob · 26/04/2017 21:39

I'm not convinced about the big drug companies involvement either, but prescription for hrt did fall from 6.1 million in 2000 to 2.3 million in 2014. I think the percentage drop was similar around the world. The trans population isn't that big, but once started, they very often are on it for life. Its also talked about as a 'try it and see what you think if it' drug that is cheap and easy to get hold of. I don't know how much money the drug companies are making from selling hrt to trans, its not worth advertising it on TV, but its quite easy to find out where to buy it from.

venusinscorpio · 26/04/2017 21:41

I'm on HRT for menopause, and have checked the cost of HRT drugs to the NHS, and basically they're cheap as chip.

Puberty blockers aren't.

venusinscorpio · 26/04/2017 21:45

So it could be simple lust for power and narcissism driving him- it would fit with his previous actions.

I was thinking about this on my commute home, funny you should say that. I started wondering whether it was an elaborate social experiment to test how far you can push people and how much meaningless unfactual nonsense you can get them to accept.

SuburbanRhonda · 27/04/2017 08:41

Here's the link to the Cornwall Schools Transgender Advice document:

www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/13620644/schools-transgender_guidance_booklet-2015.pdf

CisGender - "not trans" this would be the person who has no conflict between their assigned sex at birth and their gender as it develops

Hmm
FlyingSquid · 27/04/2017 08:56

Somewhere in all of this information to schools, someone needs to say 'Be kind - but don't be naive.'

WhereYouLeftIt · 27/04/2017 15:11

"The two youngest trans women I know seem to discuss nothing but trans. Constantly telling us to watch our language & seeming to take the most innocent comment out of context and blowing it up to be transphobic."
So basically - garnering all attention on themselves. They want you, their captive audience to talk about trans with them, validating them. And when you're not talking , you have to be thinking about what you say, policing it so that you don't cause offence to these precious snowflakes. Giving them a lot of headspace, whether talking to them or not. It's all about them.

That's not gender dysphoria, that's narcissism and a desire to control others.

AnotherQuoll · 27/04/2017 17:10

Not that I'm ever going to accept the word but... I suspect that if we women did decide to 'embrace' the term "cis", they'd want it. I think all of a sudden we'd have MtTs who'd been calling themselves "trans women", now coming up with reasons why they should be called "cis women". Any hint that they're not actually us, triggers their avoidance disorder.

PhyllisNights · 27/04/2017 17:24

I remembering being at Uni and seeing an episode of Tyra that was discussing 'Is Gay The New Black?'. I do wonder if the trans movement is somewhat borrowing from feminists, black people & gays/lesbians without actually thinking of the context?

I've mentioned this example before. Oppressed monorities would take slurs and take ownership of them, but this feels very much like they've just created their own slurs against other groups.

I do, however, understand that when trans are trying to discuss themselves in comparison to people biologically born with the gender they identify with, they want to be able to use some sort of term.

RogueBiscuit · 27/04/2017 17:32

The two youngest trans women I know seem to discuss nothing but trans. Constantly telling us to watch our language & seeming to take the most innocent comment out of context and blowing it up to be transphobic

I couldn't be arsed with people like this. Regardless of the topic nobody has the right to have someone walking on eggshells. There is a high rate of narcissistic personality disorder amongst trans people. They sound like bullys.

Datun · 27/04/2017 18:53

I think they really do suffer if you misgender them. Because not only does no one believe they're the opposite sex, they don't really either. So their hold on the delusion is fragile. And there is a big requirement for other people to validate it in order to maintain that tenuous grip.

I read that there is a lot of shame involved which leads to narcissistic rage.

It's a real problem, genuinely, because you simply cannot force people to collude. Even if people want to, they will betray themselves.

I read an account yesterday where a transwoman said she could tell by the looks, the body language, the topics of conversation, that she is being regarded as a man. She was very upset. But there was a lot of resentment and blame.

WankingMonkey · 27/04/2017 19:34

I do, however, understand that when trans are trying to discuss themselves in comparison to people biologically born with the gender they identify with, they want to be able to use some sort of term.

I think cis is used mainly so that they can just call themselves women. I think the 'trans' part upsets them so they prefer just woman, which means female people need a prefix.

I also think the TAs just say it to be cunts. But everything they do seems to be just to be a cunt, scream and stomp to get their own way on everything... and ultimately to shut up females.

LilacMarin19 · 27/04/2017 21:48

Ironic that if we reject being labelled 'cis' we get told 'It's just the definition of the term, if you aren't trans then you are cis, it doesn't mean anything bad', but when we point out that a transwoman is still by definition a male, even though 'male' technically doesn't mean anything bad, we get called ignorant mis-labelling bigots.

venusinscorpio · 27/04/2017 21:51

read an account yesterday where a transwoman said she could tell by the looks, the body language, the topics of conversation, that she is being regarded as a man. She was very upset. But there was a lot of resentment and blame.

What exactly do TW expect other people to do about it? You can't make someone believe something that they don't. This shit should not be pandered to, it is setting up unreasonable expectations.

venusinscorpio · 27/04/2017 21:56

but when we point out that a transwoman is still by definition a male, even though 'male' technically doesn't mean anything bad, we get called ignorant mis-labelling bigots.

It's because they expect to control the narrative and have other people pander to them and walk on eggshells around them. They are male, so have experienced male socialisation and are not used to be told "no". Many of them are quite clearly raging narcissists too.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 27/04/2017 22:05

I got into a long and nasty discussion on FB on exactly this, today. Basically I felt bullied into silence, because I asked for the same respect that I am more than happy to give other people - the right to choose which label they want to give themselves.

I do not wish to be given the label ciswoman. I want the label woman. It is the label I have grown up with, and it is part of who I am. I do not wish to be forced into a label that is not mine.

I absolutely respect anyone else's choice of label - but apparently I do not deserve the same respect. That is the message I was given, loud and clear, on FB today.

venusinscorpio · 27/04/2017 22:10

Did they call you cis and you objected? I think that people know full well what they are doing a lot of the time. They want to cause that reaction and deploy all the useful idiots to attack you. It is bullying. I've said it before, it feels like being in an abusive relationship felt. That gaslighting and emotional blackmail.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 27/04/2017 22:18

I chose to get involved in a discussion about the cis label, and started by saying what I have said here - that I am happy to respect the labels other people choose, but would just like the same respect, because I don't want to be labelled cis.

And then you are right - what followed was bullying and gaslighting. In the end, for my own mental health, I left the thread, unlinked the page, and blocked the nastiest people.

deckoff · 27/04/2017 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

venusinscorpio · 27/04/2017 22:33

I don't blame you SDTG Flowers sorry people are arseholes.