Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Cis labels

261 replies

sooperdooper · 24/04/2017 21:57

I'm kind of new to reaching 'Peak Trans' and I had this thought...

So if, as the trans lobby keeps repeating 'trans women are women', why would they need to call biological women 'cis'?

If they really are female there would be no need for a distinction because by simply 'identifying' as female they would be

So they've made the distinction themselves by labelling biological women cis, doesn't that make the whole discussion about 'trans women being women' invalid by their own admission?

Sorry if this is totally obvious but I'm trying to work through my own thoughts on this

OP posts:
BigDeskBob · 25/04/2017 13:50

Hi Phyllis's, sorry for doubting how genuine you were on the cj thread.

I've never seen cis used in an innocent way to show genuine differences between women and MTT. At best, its used to give MTT an excuse to tell women to shut up, but mostly its used as a slur.

Cis privilege proves that male egos transcend gender identity - they have to be the best at everything - they even have to be the best at being oppressed.

vesuvia · 25/04/2017 14:23

I think "MtT" is usually used as an abbreviation for "male to trans", isn't it?

I think that "MtT" is problematic because male transgender people are not transitioning away from their maleness. Male transgender people were male, are male and will be male.

How about "MIOW" for "Male Imitator of Womanhood"?

terfer · 25/04/2017 14:34

It even sounds creepy! It's like a snake's hiss! Sad

VestalVirgin · 25/04/2017 14:40

I think that "MtT" is problematic because male transgender people are not transitioning away from their maleness. Male transgender people were male, are male and will be male.

You have a point there. Perhaps we should say "MT" for Male Trans.

I like it better than "transwoman" because ordinary people who have never heard of this whole nonsense usually assume that a person called a woman must be female.

glenthebattleostrich · 25/04/2017 14:45

Love MIOW!

Frankly anyone who tells me to check my privileged can kiss my arse. It has become SJW shorthand for I'm far superior to you and you must acknowledge this.

I reject cis and refuse to engage with the use of it. I'll be joining many of you in taking back my inch and now using FIM or MTT.

And please don't go down the toilet argument, it is about so much more than that. tRAs use the toilet thing with wide eyed innocence, but we have cubicles why are you mean to us. At best ignoring the real situation where access to toilets leads to the creep into shelters, hospital ward's and the inability of a woman to reasonably say who gives medical treatment.

BigDeskBob · 25/04/2017 14:55

You're correct vesuvia. Miow is good, TIM is too. Adult human males would be even better.

PhyllisNights · 25/04/2017 16:07

BigDeskBob, thank you!

MIOW would be extremely offensive to a trans woman. Imitator/Imitation would go back to this idea that trans people can help how they are and that it's a choice.

I'm not a transactivist, the most I've done is discussed trans on here and fb, and gone to pride twice (didn't even go to the parade the last time, spent most of the weekend in the hotel with my husband). As for the toilets, I have my own experiences of why I would feel concerned about a man being allowed in a ladies toilet, but I still believe that there needs to a solution on compliance and safeguarding that works for everyone. Danielle Muscato being allowed to register as a trans woman baffles me.

slug · 25/04/2017 16:18

As long as they retain their penis they are Shrodinger's rapist

BigDeskBob · 25/04/2017 16:22

"Danielle Muscato being allowed to register as a trans woman baffles me."
Why does it baffle you?

SomeDyke · 25/04/2017 16:29

"this idea that trans people can help how they are and that it's a choice. "

When lesbians and gays used this as a 'defence' I have to say I disagreed with it. I much prefer -- Even if I DID chose to be a lesbian (which I would frankly, if given a choice!), what's wrong with that????

So, if a male wants to wear what is typically called 'female' clothing -- what's wrong with that?

If he wants to change his name to a female name -- what's wrong with that??

And so on.

I only have a problem when a male claims that he is thereby a woman and/or female, and should therefore get access to areas formerly reserved for females. Anything else, we'd all be a lot better off if people could just choose stuff (and then we could have a proper look at what best to do as regards people with genuine dysphoria.).

PhyllisNights · 25/04/2017 16:29

I understand that there are some trans people out there with not a lot of money who perhaps can't spend that much to transform and represent themselves as trans.

Now perhaps I don't know enough about Danielle, but what is someone who was on TV for years as a commentator doing in a shelter and not making any attempt in their appearance to convey themselves as a trans woman? I just don't understand that. On the surface, it appears that they have ulterior motives.

VestalVirgin · 25/04/2017 16:37

Danielle Muscato is what you get when you believe that transwomen are women.

Real women can: Wear suits, sensible shoes, not use make up and have beards, and they're still women, obviously.

Muscato does the same things. While being actually a biological male.

I can't say I am baffled by the fact that Muscato is considered a woman by transactivists. It is the logical outcome of the whole nonsense ideology.

BigDeskBob · 25/04/2017 16:49

To be trans, one just has to identify as trans. Nothing more. Muscato is doing just that.

I wouldn't expect a women to dress or act a certain way, why ask that of a trans person?

PhyllisNights · 25/04/2017 16:56

It's not about a stereotypical view of a woman. It's going back to that idea that if Danielle walked into a ladies toilet, women would say something. And from what I've read online, I don't feel as if Danielle is being entirely legit. It appears that Danielle is trolling and therefore discrediting genuine people who identify as trans.

YorkshireTree · 25/04/2017 17:00

Yes many of us who were very trans accepting in the past have become suspicious and jaded due to the actions of TAs. Its harmful for everyone. I can't really think of another 'prejudice' that people go backwards on. Previously tolerant people don't suddenly become homophobic.

gettinfedduppathis · 25/04/2017 17:12

At last, I have found my people Smile

Cannot stand the 'cis' thing.

vesuvia · 25/04/2017 17:22

PhyllisNights wrote - "Imitator/Imitation would go back to this idea that trans people can help how they are and that it's a choice."

I disagree with you. I don't think the imitation must link to transgender being either a choice or not a choice. People often imitate other people even if it is not a conscious choice.

The imitation of women by male transgender people includes altering a male body to look only superficially like a female body but it cannot actually become a female body. For example, a male transperson's so-called "neo-vagina" cannot perform the same biological functions as a vagina, especially its role in childbirth.

Surgery on male transgender people will not magically create a real vagina, just because that person believes their transgender status is not a choice. Deceiving transgender people into thinking their surgery is not an imitation only comes back to haunt the transgender person in particular and society in general.

Nowadays, many male transgender people choose to not bother making their body look even superficially like a woman's body.

Gallavich · 25/04/2017 17:24

There is really no reason to believe that Danielle is not entirely sincere about his woman identity.
Transwomen do not have to
-wear long hair or wigs
-shave their beard

  • wear makeup
  • wear heels or dresses
  • wear padded bras
  • have breast implants
  • take oestrogen
  • tuck their penis
  • have genital surgery
Trabswomen may do some, all or none of the above list. Self identification means that all permutations are legally, officially women. This means that Danielle is literally just as much a woman as laverne cox, or your mate Paula in accounts. And even if Danielle was trolling - if it wasn't Danielle it would be someone else.
VestalVirgin · 25/04/2017 17:26

It's not about a stereotypical view of a woman. It's going back to that idea that if Danielle walked into a ladies toilet, women would say something.

No, because transactivists will call them "terfs", threaten them with rape, and/or sue them if they object to a man's presence in the women's toilet.

That is exactly the only thing that transactivism is all about: Forcing women to accept penis in our spaces. All spaces. Not just toilets but also showers, prison cells, et cetera.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 25/04/2017 17:37

Phyllis the US now have gender identity laws in place which means legally Danielle is a woman. Anybody asking him to leave the ladies toilet or changing rooms could be charged with a hate crime.

PhyllisNights · 25/04/2017 17:43

I am aware of the US laws, but surely if someone in the US saw her in the toilets then they wouldn't presume that she was trans.

I am in no way saying that everyone has to conform to a certain look. There just appears to be a lot of red flags with Danielle.

I'm shocked that anyone advocating for trans rights would threaten anyone else with rape. That's terrible. It undermines what they're trying to argue for and support.

Datun · 25/04/2017 17:46

Individuals with AGP might have bottom surgery to achieve the ultimate aim of being the woman of their fantasy. And they love to present as hyper sexualised women.

Transwomen with gender dysphoria might have bottom surgery to eliminate their male genitalia. They too, would prefer to present as women, although not hypersexualised.

But I don't see how Danielle Muscato fits either of these.

I totally get the premise that if you truly think you are a woman there is no reason to wear feminine clothing, because women often don't.

But as I don't think any of these people truly think they are women, I don't get Danielle's angle.

He could be a chancer, as Phyllis suggests. But his investment in the movement makes me think that unlikely.

So I don't get it. And neither do any of the transactivists. They're outraged by him.

Hi Phyllis

Welcome back. You are definitely going to come up against arguments you don't like. But don't lose heart.

BigDeskBob · 25/04/2017 17:53

But there isn't just two definition of being trans - agp and dysphonia. It's anything anyone wants it to be. They could be as many definitions as they are trans people.

Poppyred85 · 25/04/2017 17:56

I am not did. It's a term I deeply object to. I am me. One of the facets of my identity is woman. I also hate the phrase "check your privilege." It is not a race to the bottom as to who has been oppressed more and in my experience is very rarely something women say to each other, but is used by TAs to get women to STFU. Does the fact that I'm not Jewish make my opinion that the Holocaust was a horrifying atrocity that should never be allowed to be repeated any less valid?

Poppyred85 · 25/04/2017 17:56

*Cis not did