Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

Jenner may identify as a women, live as a women () and believe that they were always a women. But nobody, not even the best trans ally, are treating them as a women. Jenner is allowed to behave in ways that would not be tolerated from a women. Just look how Rachel dolezal has been treated compared to Jenner.

Jenner is allowed to behave in ways that would not be tolerated from a women
Jenner found a way to have the cake and eat it and is milking it for all it's worth

Recognising that Caitlyn Jenner is a man isn't derogatory. Of course he is. He may prefer presenting in a feminine manner but that's not a sex change. I'm with American TV host Tucker Carlson who said he'd pay a $1,000 to anyone who could produce a biologist from a reputable university who was prepared to confirm that you could change sex simply by saying so.

For a right wing pundit, Tucker Carlson has some solid feminist friendly views. He's had a couple of segments in which he examines transgender doctrine recently, and I use the term doctrine advisedly.

Prawn, you do realise he has replaced multiple work place sexual harasser Bill O'Reilly and that Carlson's reputation is already being questioned as onscreen footage has emerged of him being sexist to a female coworker? Fox News is not a source that feminists should be using.

mediamatters.org/research/2017/04/19/here-are-some-sexist-things-neo-nazi-favorite-and-oreilly-replacement-tucker-carlson-has-said/216109

Here we go. If we're going to call Whoopi Goldberg a rapist apologist, we best be fair to both sides.

I don't know about this Whoopi Goldberg stuff (assume its been in this thread but I haven't read it) but I don't think you can discount someones opinion on one matter because they hold a different opinion on another, if that makes sense.

Basically, you can agree with something someone says, even if you disagree strongly with something else they have said.

Here's another incisive Tucker Carlson interview, this time with a feminist. Strange bedfellows indeed! I'm a huge Obama fan but his transgender policy for schools was insane.

Neither the left nor the right have ever prioritized women, and the TRA agenda has given left wing men a rod to beat women who refuse to put men - yet again - first.

I know Tucker Carlson is right wing and works for the ghastly Faux. However that doesn't detract from two very crisp interviews, valid regardless the man conducting them. There's another angle too : Tucker's fans are being exposed to gender critical thinking, as well as the nonsense illogic of TRA claims.

I don't think it matters which current celebrity said what. It should be about facts and science.

Fox News is not a source that feminists should be using

Coming from a woman who thinks it's more of a problem to call Caitlin a man than to call women 'non men' that's fucking rich.

Don't tell feminists what they should be doing.

CharlieSierra, stop putting words in my mouth again. You are completely missing the point. I never ever said that. I just said that I didn't feel offended because it was a strange thing to reference to my female friends. I found it bizarre.

And also, everyone was more than happy to berate me for quoting Whoopi, but it doesn't seem to apply when you're quoting a sexist misogynistic news reporter who is favoured on your side of the argument.

I don't think it matters which current celebrity said what. It should be about facts and science.

If its about facts and science...that doesn't bode well for the transgender argument tbh.

I agree it should be about facts and science btw, not 'feelings'

Phyllis - Am I ignoring the fact that women have been mistreated and disadvantaged for years compared to men? Absolutely not. I have experienced misogyny on many levels.

I got all excited when you wrote this, just for a moment I thought you were about to acknowledge that women's concerns might be legitimate.

But no, you continue with - I can absolutely see why a large proportion of the trans community dislike a privileged rich white man transitioning into a trans woman and then showing little apathy for other trans people and the wider LGBT community.

It's still all about trans feelings, even when apparently talking about misogyny. I suppose you have included some women by default there when you reference LGBT but I do not for one second believe you have the slightest clue about the impact of transactivists on lesbians, their safety and their culture.

You absolutely are ignoring the long centuries of misogyny that women have suffered and continue to suffer.

Howdo I define a woman?A woman is someone who has been biologically born as a woman and identifies as a woman or a transwoman who identifies as a woman

So, to simplify -

A woman is someone who was born female, or who was born male, and who identifies as a woman

Which, given that well over 99% of us are born clearly male or female, is the same as saying -

A woman is someone who identifies as a woman

This is a circular definition and gets us nowhere nearer to understanding what a woman is. It also leaves out a vast chunk of us who don't 'identify' as women, we just are adult human females - i.e. women.

Yes i agree wanking

If woman is someone who identifies as a woman, what the fuck am I? I don't 'identify' as anything, I am just me. Mind, according to stonewall I am trans myself. As I am not a walking stereotype. Everyone I know is trans according to the current definition.

In the words of Natasha Chart from Hands Across the Aisle - On the subject of whether a woman is an adult human female, feminists have been made thoroughly unwelcome on the left. So if liberals think it’s very strange for feminists to work with conservatives, they should probably stop telling us to “drink bleach” or looking the other way as online mobs demand that we be fired.

Yes I'm Stonewall-trans too, Wanking. I think we all are

According to the Stonewall definition I'm trans, as are most people. It's so broad as to have become meaningless, just like Phyllis's definition of the word "woman".

Phyllis, my definition of "woman" = adult human female. You would have to define "woman" in way that covers not only every one of the billions of women alive around the world and also all the transwomen but no transmen. Oh, and no circular logic (a woman is anyone who says they're a woman*). Bet you cant do it.

*And that example doesn't work even if you allow the circular reasoning. A woman who can't speak or is in a coma is still a woman..

Well there definitely should be an uproar about someone who is a transwoman and who we must call 'she' going back to their male identity for the purposes of gaining admission to a club from which women are excluded. When Caitlin starts to show some respect for the class of people she claims to identify as, Caitlin can expect the same from me.

Abso-bloody-lutely.

It's this behaviour that smacks of being bloody disingenuous.

Phyllis - I think you mis-understood the reference to "non-male". It wasn't being used in relation to your TW friends, it was what the Green Party call anyone (including you, your mother, your grandmother and your other biologically female friends and family) who is not biologically male.

It wouldn't be OK to talk about "non-white" or "non-straight" people, how the heck is it OK for a relatively mainstream political party to use the term non-male?

phyllis

You sound like a decent person. And if you are friends with a transwoman, I can see how us 'flipping' your experience is difficult.

Can I ask whether your friend is attracted to men or women?

She is, though, a trans woman and we should be polite by using female pronouns.

Female pronouns belong to women. They define us and definition is at stake here. Individual women get to decide whether they wish to use female pronouns for male people, IMO. Men are not entitled to insist that we do. Or to shame us for not saying something that, to some women, feels dishonest.

FTR I am quite happy to refer to Curry and transwomen like her as she/her. But Curry's respectful, non threatening transwomanhood is far, far removed from the transwomanhood of Caitlin Jenner.

I was not aware that Jenner remains Bruce for golfing purposes. Would struggle with female pronouns for Caitlin on that basis alone.

I'm glad that you stuck around though Phyllis. I used to share some of your opinions. Am secretly hoping that you might have your own lightbulb moment and respect your willingness to engage in the meantime.

OlennasWimple, I'm going to have to do some reading on non-male and the Green party. I don't understand why they would go around calling women that. I have a few friends that I find rather obnoxious and they campaign for all of us to vote Green, but I honestly have always seen it as a wasted vote and a protest vote. They then moan when Conservative are in power.

Datun, thank you. My friend was with another trans woman for most of her twenties and thirties. It wasn't until she hit 40, that they split up and she realised that she was bisexual. Since they split up a few years ago, she's been dating men.

sticklebrix, thank you. I have no problem engaging, but I don't see myself being persuaded to think the other way. I'll be really honest here. I grew up around a lot of snobby and rich people. I used to hear the word 'tranny' a lot, not just used by men, but women too. There a few famous women (that I won't list), that people I knew would refer to as trannies. I remember working part-time at a cinema through Uni, and being shocked when a trans woman walked in with her children to a kids AM screening (the ones that are cheap and exclusively for parents and their children) in the morning. I went home and told my friends that I didn't think it was right, and they told me that I was in the wrong. Over time, my views and opinions changed, and I befriended some gay friends, then lesbian friends, and then eventually became friends with trans people. I've spent time with them, I've watched stuff, read stuff, and I really truly believe that it isn't a mental illness, and that we should respect trans people and allow for them as a minority to have their rights. The issue with toilets, prisons and whatever else is a really difficult one, because I do think it's important to safeguard, but I don't believe that trans people should suffer as a result. Above all else, I will not accept people referring to Caitlyn as a "he" or "him" or doing that to other trans women (or vice-versa with trans men). Would anyone in here use male pronouns for Laverne Cox?

"Own lightbulb moment"

I don't think anyone believes MTT are women, as in indistinguishable from one another. But more think, where's the harm? Or see them as troubled individuals who need protecting. Its only when a demand is made or something hits a nerve that critical thinking happens. That's the risk stonewall has when trying to increase the visibility of trans, they increase the chance of peak trans.

I know men aren't happy when mtt pass themselves off as women on old sites and the cotton ceiling, although denied, has had many people question trans ideology. How many people will be happy when MTT compete and win more visibly in women's sports? Or will be happy to leave their grandmother in a ward overnight with a MTT? The transing of children will be another lightbulb moment, but that potentially won't be exposed for years.