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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:

Thread gallery

BeyondUser24601 · 23/04/2017 20:09

Surprised no one has linked that Jenner is going to do a nude photo shoot...
(Daily mail again - they sure do like Jenner!!)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4410398/Caitlyn-Jenner-planning-NUDE-photo-shoot.html

PencilsInSpace · 23/04/2017 20:10

My take on pronouns (from the original Spartacus thread) -

I am happy to use a trans person's chosen pronouns when they are not threatening women's safety and hard-won rights. It's a courtesy, extended because I know there are some people for whom becoming trans is the only way of finding some sort of peace with life and they wish no harm to anyone.

Sometimes though, it is necessary to drop that courtesy. Women's rights and safety are threatened by the transactivist agenda and we need accurate language to describe and counter that threat. Where necessary I will refer to transwomen as 'he' and 'his'.

OlennasWimple · 23/04/2017 20:14

Phyllis - Link to Green Party FB page here.

"A recent issue, taken out of context of its intent, has arisen and caused quite a stir. As a result, the committee of Green Party Women would like to reassure our sisters that we by no means intend to erase women’s identities by forcing members to define relation to men. "Non-male" and "women" are not synonymous.

However, Green Party Women are happy with uses of the term “non-male" as an umbrella term when gender balance practices are conducted. This umbrella term groups together all who face gendered oppression; women, transgender women and individuals of non-binary or no genders. We all deserve to be recognised and included.

For too long, marginalised women have been excluded from most women's movements and circles. As a group we affirm that trans women are women, and that non-binary genders and other gender identities experience oppression and deserve respect. After all, we are part of a political party, The Green Party, which has a proud history of inclusivity."

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 20:31

OlennasWimple, in that context, I do believe it's PC language gone mad. That has got me thinking to "pregnant people" at the NHS and whether it was entirely necessary. It's such a difficult one because I am aware of trans men that have had kids before transitioning.

BeyondUser24601 · 23/04/2017 20:37

Phyllis, afaik there has only been one ftt pregnancy in the uk, very recently. In comparison to how many women/mother pregnancies...?

Non-men cost the greens my membership, and as of next month my vote too. Not strictly relevant to the thread, but thought I'd point it out as you commented on the rightwingness of FWR feminists.

PencilsInSpace · 23/04/2017 20:43

It's not just PC language gone mad, it erases women. There is no longer a word for the group of people who are born with female anatomy and the potential ability to bear children. The word 'woman' has been taken from us.

This is a problem because the group of people who are born with female anatomy and the potential ability to bear children are still discriminated against and oppressed, worldwide, because of their female anatomy and their potential ability to bear children.

If we can no longer even name this group, how on earth can we even name the oppression we face, let alone fight it?

Terfer · 23/04/2017 20:43

Don't forget WEP too! They've lost lots of voters over a similar policy.

OlennasWimple · 23/04/2017 20:51

Why can't we call men "non-women"?

Answer: they would never let us get away with it

sticklebrix · 23/04/2017 21:21

But more think, where's the harm? Or see them as troubled individuals who need protecting.

Yes. My lightbulb moment was realising that trans is a big umbrella for many different issues. The harming of women's rights came as a shock once I started reading.

Phyllis we have been lightbulbed in opposite directions. Some common ground though: transwomen should certainly have rights and respect. But I will prioritise women's rights wherever they come into conflict with trans rights.

Had to google Laverne Cox getting old. Re. pronouns, pencils said it better than I can. Probably female pronouns but I don't know enough about Cox to be sure.

I find it difficult to use female pronouns when a transwoman shows contempt for females whilst simultaneously appropriating womanhood (e.g. Caitlin being Bruce at the golf club).

Have you come across transactivist Danielle Muscato? Would you be okay with calling Danielle 'she'?

Terfer · 23/04/2017 21:30

And then there's this explosion...

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 21:39

Ah bless. They even made little symbols for each ridiculous 'gender'. So much hard work gone into that project

Technically there should be about 7 billion of those. Given gender is personality (+ sex stereotypes)

Best get working on the rest

DJBaggySmalls · 23/04/2017 21:42

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Caitlyn-Jenner-at-Chicago-House-Event-347217932.htmlwww.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Caitlyn-Jenner-at-Chicago-House-Event-347217932.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Caitlyn Jenner admits he was caught by his 10 year old daughters interfering with their clothing

Caitlyn Jenner reveals some of her children are "more distant" since she transitioned

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 21:43

Well done Phyllis you're finally starting to get it

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 21:46

A woman is someone who has been biologically born as a woman and identifies as a woman or a trans woman who identifies as a woman.

A transwoman is not a woman. We're transwomen

BigDeskBob · 23/04/2017 21:50

I'm sure they took inspiration from my ds drawings of the Teletubbies for the gender fluid symbols.

BeyondUser24601 · 23/04/2017 21:51

I still see washing care instructions.

BigDeskBob · 23/04/2017 21:58

My inner goth is attracted to the gender void symbol.

What could a gender version 1 and 2 possibly mean?

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 22:02

Phyllis if you have lesbian friends are you aware of the harm the trans rights agenda is doing to them? This ideology is deeply homophobic and lesbians are being harassed and erased for expressing their sexual preference.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:10

I have a few lesbian friends who are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Apologies is this terminology is offensive. The femme ones are not interested in trans at all, they don't discuss it, they seem to care less when it's been mentioned, they sort of ignore it. The more butch ones are a mix of either being sexually ambiguous or being open minded and being into trans women as potential partners.

I'm not aware of Danielle Muscato. Some of my friends really dislike a far right trans woman, but I can't remember who that is off the top of my head.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 22:12

What do you think about lesbians being threatened, assaulted and labelled bigots when they don't want to have sex with transwomen?

AntigoneJones · 23/04/2017 22:14

BigDeskBob - oh please - he only did it for the media attention, let's be honest.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:21

What do you think about lesbians being threatened, assaulted and labelled bigots when they don't want to have sex with transwomen?

Well, I haven't encountered any of those experiences or heard that from my friends. If anything, my experience of trans women is that they're scared to not be too imposing on others. My closest trans friend, the trans woman in her early 40s, was on Tinder and was extremely worried about telling cis men that she was transgender (I think this may have been before they added trans as a feature of the profile).

I know that some of my gay friends have felt very uncomfortable by how forward and intimidating other gay men have been, but I just truly have never heard about trans women being like that.

No one should be threatened or assaulted. In a perfect world, we would be colour blind to everything from race to gender to looks, but we're not. I'm straight and have always loved tall men with brown hair and brown eyes. It must be frustrating for trans women to perhaps feel that they're not being accepted because they're trans, but there is no excuse whatsoever for trying to force yourself onto someone who is not into you.

sticklebrix · 23/04/2017 22:39

Phyllis
www.daniellemuscato.com

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 22:39

And this is part of the problem I think. You haven't seen some of the nasty things the most vocal trans activists/transwomen have said.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 22:42

Danielle Muscato.

He's a woman because he says he is and if you question it then you're a bigot apparently. This is self identification in action.

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