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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 15:43

The toilet thing is a red herring though in reality. Its always the focus of these discussions. We then have to come up with a solution to things like prisons. The solution right now appears to be to put fully intact males who say they 'feel like women' or wear dresses in with the females. This is NOT a good solution and puts all females in the prison at risk.

There are other areas also...rape crisis centres being the one that comes to mind the most after reading about the transwoman who tried to sue a crisis centre for not employing her.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:46

I was baffled by it, I had never heard it before. I had no idea that term existed. I just found it strange that my friends were referred to as that.

My point was that we're in a thread about Caitlyn Jenner, a trans woman, and I didn't like some of the language that was being used. I found it shocking that in 2017 we're referring to an out trans woman as "he". It's the sort of thing I expect to see on the comments section of an article on DM by ignorant hateful transphobic people.

ineedmoreLemonPledge · 23/04/2017 15:47

But we can refer to Jenner as a father? Confused

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:48

Prisons worry me because those are the sort of places that are a free for all of hate and violence against anyone that is different from the persona of whatever that higher achy in that particular prison may be.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:50

Caitlyn Jenner's children call her dad and a father? They already have a mother. Why should they have to change that? And who are we to judge if that's what has been agreed between Caitlyn and her family members? That whole matter is addressed in shows such as Transparent (I know it's fictional, but the writer/creator has a trans parent themselves).

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 15:50

Prisons worry me because those are the sort of places that are a free for all of hate and violence against anyone that is different from the persona of whatever that higher achy in that particular prison may be.

Well yes, prisons are terrible for violence in general. However throw in a male with a bunch of females, its pretty likely they can cause a lot more damage to the females than other females would just because of biology. They will generally be much bigger than the females, and much stronger. This is before even taking into account the large risk of pregnancies and rapes. Sex segregation in prisons is an absolute must.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:54

What do we think of the trans people that have been chucked in to a prison that does not match their gender identity and not been allowed to take their hormones? I worry about their safety. I do get the point about a man abusing the system to get into a woman's prison. It's just a really complex situation, and a very hard situation to ensure that everyone is safeguarded. I think I mentioned this before, but it's not like you can have a trans section in a prison because not every single prison in one particular country is going to be able to accommodate that.

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 15:55

The thread is about Caitlin Jenner in Feminism chat. People here are coming at it from a feminist perspective. You have waded in having apparently no understanding whatsoever of that perspective, or indeed feminism generally, and have repeatedly and persistently called people hateful and transphobic whilst wilfully ignoring any attempts to explain it to you and being incapable yourself of formulating a cogent argument. It's incredibly rude of you.

ineedmoreLemonPledge · 23/04/2017 15:56

Especially segregation of men that have committed sex crimes against women.

I hear Ian Huntley is now asking to be called Lian.

The definition of father is a man in relation to his children. So why is calling him he worse than dad? Confused

You get to pick and chose your offences?

We don't get to chose CIS or TERF though strangely....

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 16:01

CharlieSierra, I've already been told it's rude of me, and to go back to an earlier point, there should not be some prerequisite to be able to post in here. I didn't come looking for this, I saw it on the sidebar, fully expected some hate against Caitlyn, but was pretty shocked by the discussion in here.

Ian Huntley is a dangerous individual and should be handled correctly by the clinical psychiatrists, psychologists & therapists correctly.

Did I like being referred to as cis in the past? No, but I'm a privileged white woman. That's the term they're using. I don't like it when I've been looked down upon because I was born a woman and identify as a woman, but I just don't bother commenting on trans blogs/vlogs anymore because I don't want to get into those sort of arguments.

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 16:02

What do we think of the trans people that have been chucked in to a prison that does not match their gender identity and not been allowed to take their hormones? I worry about their safety. I do get the point about a man abusing the system to get into a woman's prison. It's just a really complex situation, and a very hard situation to ensure that everyone is safeguarded. I think I mentioned this before, but it's not like you can have a trans section in a prison because not every single prison in one particular country is going to be able to accommodate that.

Well yet again, we have the question of...whose rights matter more, trans or females. And the answer seems to be trans.

It is possible to have a trans wing in a couple of prisons. The option is there to go to one of those prisons, or go in with the males. Or maybe solitary.

I get that transwomen would be in danger or violence and rape in a males prison. But why is the solution to that to put them in with females when THEY could be the ones then inflicting rape and violence.

Gay men, feminine men, hell any man who is not 'top dog' is in danger in a males prison. The answer is to tackle violence and stuff in general. Not to put females in danger to try and safeguard males.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 16:02

Oh, and despite Caitlyn's children still calling her a dad or a father, they refer to her as SHE and HER, not HE and HIM. It's not that hard to understand.

Terfer · 23/04/2017 16:11

Okay, let's untangle some of this logic...

Caitlyn as an olympic athlete is Bruce 'he'

Caitlyn as a parent is a father, but 'she'

Caitlyn as a golfer is Bruce and 'he' (His golf club doesn't allow female members Sad )

Caitlyn in general is 'she'

Did I miss anything?

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 16:17

What is the point in changing the Olympic status? As for the golf membership, there would be an uproar either way if she was allowed to keep her membership or wasn't.

I don't see myself as a transactivist or a Caitlyn Jenner apologist. She's privileged, she's problematic, she has a hell of a lot of learning to still do. She is, though, a trans woman and we should be polite by using female pronouns.

7Days · 23/04/2017 16:20

So do you think single sex spaces are necessary then, phyllis?

Terfer · 23/04/2017 16:21

For the most part, people here are using female pronouns. I'm just getting confused because you're saying that it is sometimes okay to refer back to her as male?

Also, shouldn't there be "uproar" that a golf club is allowed to exclude female members? Nevermind, the transgender issue!

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 16:25

notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/the-thing-about-toilets/

This is a good read. It explains the issues rather well and without 'hatred'. Also has links to stats on male violence...if anyone needs proof that males are a danger to females...

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 16:26

Also, shouldn't there be "uproar" that a golf club is allowed to exclude female members?

Yes, I didn't realise this was allowed anymore.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 16:26

I'm not saying that it's ok to refer back to her as a male, I'm saying that she has a history like all trans people. She hasn't been born a new person, nor has she has been recast in a soap opera. She is someone who has lived 67 years and happened to transition two years ago. She is still an Olympic winner, she is still someone's child.

The uproar was in regards to either point, whether they were letting someone that was trans female in to the club, or whether Caitlyn's privileged position allowed her to be the only female member in the club exclusively.

As regards to single sex spaces, in an ideal world there would be female, male & unisex.

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 16:28

As regards to single sex spaces, in an ideal world there would be female, male & unisex.

I agree, this would be ideal. However you would still have the transactivists pushing for access to the female areas instead of unisex.

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 16:29

Also, shouldn't there be "uproar" that a golf club is allowed to exclude female members? Nevermind, the transgender issue!

Well there definitely should be an uproar about someone who is a transwoman and who we must call 'she' going back to their male identity for the purposes of gaining admission to a club from which women are excluded. When Caitlin starts to show some respect for the class of people she claims to identify as, Caitlin can expect the same from me.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 16:32

Caitlyn has a lot of learning to do, and I think she's improved since she began her journey. Should we not rise above it and show respect regardless? I wouldn't call some a derogatory term due to their gender, sexual orientation or race because I didn't respect or like them. I work with some men that I absolutely despise, I would love to refer to them as certain words, but I don't.

Terfer · 23/04/2017 16:40

Being called 'male' is not derogatory! What's wrong with being male? Confused

I've been mistook for a boy a few times, never bothered me! Should it have?

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 16:42

It's derogatory to someone who has transitioned and identifies as a woman.

peaceout · 23/04/2017 17:01

Well yet again, we have the question of...whose rights matter more, trans or females. And the answer seems to be trans

exactly, it just looks like men trying to 'game' things to get a better deal for themselves at the expense of women.
As women gain more rights and power so there is a response from men to push them back down again and assert the rights of men over a women.
but in a passive aggressive sort of way, I'm not a man I'm a woman, because I feel like a woman and it suits me to make that a sufficient condition for qualifying as a woman.

It's bullshit