Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

I could decide I feel that I was born the wrong species, really I should be a dolphin, I could live my life as a dolphin, but I would always be a human imitating a dolphin
MTTs are men imitating women, a woman is a human with xx chromosomes nothing can change that.

Right. That transpecies or transrace stuff isn't accredited, so let us not demean trans people who have a history and have gone through this stuff for years, as being on the same level as someone who believes they should be a dog or a black person when they're born white.

And can I just say, as much as my opinions differ from the majority of you, I do think some of you are extremely respectful of trans people. The people in here who are saying offensive remarks really need to think about what they're posting because it isn't far off hate speech.

phyllisnights assigned gender is a pretty meaningless term really. People can identify as male/female, dress and present themselves as the opposite sex, modify their body, etc etc. However they cannot change their biological sex, therefore a transwoman is still a man, a transman is still a woman.
As far as pronouns go, yes most people don't knowingly use the wrong pronouns, however that is out of politeness, generally. If their senses tell them that the person in front of them is one sex then that is what most people believe. Many people ( and I would argue the majority of mainstream society, though of course we don't know for sure) don't believe that 'transwomen are women', or vice versa. Just to use Caitlyn as an example, no she doesn't look like a woman, she never will she hasn't lived a woman's life. While I am polite and call her Caitlyn/she I do not accept her as a woman.
As far as toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards go, I place a priority on the privacy of women (and girls) in womens spaces. As long as there are places exclusively for women I'm happy with that. It's up to transpeople and their supporters to arrange for facilities if they're not happy to use facilities that correspond with their biological sex. Having said that, I would be ok to share with a transwoman who has undergone full surgery and obtained a gender reassignment certificate, under the old system.

But Phyllis, what is the actual logical reason - from your own critical thinking about it, or someone else's - why a white person who decides the 'identify' more strongly with being black, and therefore wants others to validate that they are black, is very different from a male person who decides they 'identify' more strongly with being female, and therefore wants others to validate that they are female?

'It's demeaning to trans people' or 'trans people have a history and have gone through this stuff for years [I don't know what you mean by that]' are not actually reasons why it's different, it's just telling people they're mean for asking the question.

Is it because race is a social construct (so is gender), or because they're a power differential between white and black people (as there is between men and women), or because a black person will have a lifetime's experience of racism (as a woman will of sexism) which makes it particularly insulting for a white person to appropriate their identity (as it is when a male appropriates womanhood)....

What's the actual difference, in your view?

they're there's

My transwoman friends (tbf though, I only know 2 properly. As friends rather than just people I see around sometimes) think I am respectful of transpeople. I would say I am too. I just disagree with compromising the safety of females when it can be avoided.

I am not against transpeople. I am against transactivists. Most of whom are misogynistic arseholes hellbent on getting females to shut the fuck up.

My lesbian friends who have been put in dodgy situations by transwomen and told they are transphobic for not wanting to shag someone with a penis...are still respectful of transpeople as they realize the crazies who believe in female penises and such do not represent ALL transpeople.

Basically...I don't think anyone is against transpeople. They are against trans-ideology and transactivists. Many on here have said repeatedly that they would stand besides transpeople in fighting for their own spaces, where they themselves can feel/be safer. They just do not think females should compromise their own safety to accommodate this. A view I agree with 100%

As an interesting aside...the transwomen I know do acknowledge they are male. Bot are post op, and both are attracted to men rather than women though. I think this makes a difference. It seems to be the 'lesbian' transwomen (aka...straight men) that have an issue with females wanting privacy and refusing to see them as 'real women'. And of course..refusing to shag their ladysticks, clitties, or whatever vile term they come up with for their dick.

I do believe that race is a social construct. Your race is determined by your parents DNA. I don't think it's fair for someone that was born white to adopt a black identity when black people have a history of being mistreated from years of slavery that has trickled down into society today.

Am I ignoring the fact that women have been mistreated and disadvantaged for years compared to men? Absolutely not. I have experienced misogyny on many levels. I can absolutely see why a large proportion of the trans community dislike a privileged rich white man transitioning into a trans woman and then showing little apathy for other trans people and the wider LGBT community.

And when I say that trans people have a history and have gone through years of struggling, there have been trans people existing for decades. Some started identifying as gay, others may have been transvestites or drag queens. It's completely different to transpecies and transrace which are rather new terms - transpecies which you come across on sites as ridicule or mocking, while transrace which has sparked debates ever since Rachel Dolezal came to attention.

WankingMonkey, I don't think you have been disrespectful, but surely you have seen other users say some rather crass things? I know you're on there side of the argument, but you shouldn't be standing for that when you have trans friends.

Out of my closest trans friends, the trans woman would absolutely say that she is a woman. Would she admit to someone that she is a trans woman? Yes. She's lived her life as a woman for two decades now. One of the trans men I know have a rather ambiguous opinion of gender. I don't particularly agree with 56 forms of gender, but that's just my opinion.

phyllis you contradicted yourself in your first 2 sentences. I do believe that race is a social construct. Your race is determined by your parent's DNA
Something that us determined (or defined) by DNA is a biological construct, not a social one. Which statement do you believe?

BTW Phyllis I'll address your offence now as it seems you're threatening to leave and then just coming back again after each flounce, so perchance you'll read:

I didn't call you nonmale, I am telling you what transactivists are fighting for. Brighton may not matter much to you, but it certainly matters to the 100,000 or so female residents there. So if you are offended by me pointing out what the future could be, think on the present for those women.

It's a complete misnomer to say posters here are transphobic and to imply that we are throwing hate accusations around.

Since reading these threads over the last few months it's opened my mind to the detriment to women's rights the trans activists are establishing, not rotted it.

There is an horrific amount of hatred to women - just search TERF on twitter where you'll see tweets such as "Die CIS scum", Terfs can suck my lady dick, and a host of other testosterone fuelled violent acts and death threats posted.

Why? How many feminists have ever made a death threat or physically harmed a MtT?

Last year approx 52 MtT worldwide were found murdered. By men. Many due to the risk of their line of work, in prostitution, some by boyfriends but none as I see it by Feminists.

So why aren't they wishing death by lady dick choking on CIS males?

noeffingidea, I'm saying that race and how it is viewed is a social construct. The race that you are given is from your parents DNA. Therefore, two white parents with no trace of black heritage in there DNA cannot give birth to a white person who believes they should be black.

ineedmoreLemonPledge, I didn't like my friends being referred to as non-male, but it's not something I particularly found offensive in the bigger picture. I find some of the language used against trans people in this thread offensive.

Oh, and I do find some of the comments from trans people to cis people disgusting and offensive. I've had some trans people be extremely rude to me on FB when I was defending a gay friend.

phyllis but that is exactly what can happen. Rachael Dolzeal is that person, a white person carrying the DNA of 2 white parents does believe she is black, apparently.

CoolJaz, I didn't ignore that trans woman - I private messaged her separately yesterday because I didn't want to be offensive or rude towards her. I'm not a trans woman, so I'm not going to debate with her what is her truth.

There are many trans people who have gone through hormone therapy and surgery that are extremely happy in their new bodies. Do they still face hate, bigotry, discrimination and whatever else because they aren't "passing" as trans? Absolutely, but there a hell of a lot happier than they were before. Am I saying that will work for 100% of the people under that umbrella? No. Do I think it's a good idea to take a toddler boy who wants to wear a dress to the doctors and cry out "trans!" straight away? No. It's not all black and white, but for some reason in this thread it seems completely mounted one way against anything I have seen, read or heard elsewhere.

WankingMonkey, I don't think you have been disrespectful, but surely you have seen other users say some rather crass things? I know you're on there side of the argument, but you shouldn't be standing for that when you have trans friends.

It really depends what you mean by crass things. Any genuine transphobia on here is deleted swiftly, and I have myself reported transphobic posts before. Misgendering I would not do myself, but I understand why some women feel they should not be using preferred pronouns. everything was ticking along quite nicely, it is the transactivists who have created this sorry mess. Transwomen have used female areas for years with no issue. The problem is when the argument becomes 'any male' which is what it is now. Hell even the transwomen I know disagree with this as they see it as it will make THEM more unsafe also. They use the ladies to be safer, opening the doors to any male makes the ladies just as unsafe as they feel the males is.

Transactivists have created the sitiation where if a child is playing with cars instead of dolls, they are pushed towards transitioning. thats just crazy. Parents of children with sex dysphoria are presented with ONE treatment option...transition. This is not hyperbole, it is happening. There is a parent on here who has a child in this situation. the parent/child refused hormone blockers/cross sex hormones and were left without even basic counselling because they turned down transition. Transactivists have even professionals scared. I do not understand how it has got to this point...but it has and I really feel the need to fight back against it. we are going to have a generation of fucked up adults who have mutliated themselves with surgeries they do not need, who have sterylised themselves with the support of the adults in their life who should have been protecting them. The shit will hit the fan in a few years I expect. I just find it all so sad.

Transition might make some people feel better about themselves, and thats fair enough..I would never want someone to be unhappy if there was a 'cure'. But this decision needs to be made by adults, not children. People should not be pressured into this. And you simply cannot expect everyone to go along with the lie that by getting a boobjob and a genital reconstruction you actually change sex.

It is a hard situation. But I do not feel females should just budge over and accept their rights being eroded. And this IS what is happening.

Wow, phyllis did I just read your last post correctly? You dont consider your friends (women?) being described as non males offensive? On what planet is that not offensive?
Human beings are 'men' and 'women' , both equally human. Describing women as 'non men' implies that men are the default human being and women are lesser. I really can't think of a bigger insult, tbh.

It's not that I didn't find my female friends being described as non-male offensive, it's that I didn't take it to be as offensive as some of the hate trans language I've seen in here. You don't know me or my friends, they would just laugh off a comment as non-male and not take it seriously.