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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 14:59

WankingMonkey, I do agree with everything you've just basically said, by the way. Except for the pronouns stuff.

noeffingidea · 23/04/2017 15:01

phyllis give examples of 'trans hate language' that you consider insulting?

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 15:02

WankingMonkey, I do agree with everything you've just basically said, by the way. Except for the pronouns stuff.

I get that the debate seems really polarized on these threads. In reality though you would be hard pushed to find any person who posts here who is against transpeople. We would fight alongside them for equal rights for them, access to healthcare, housing, their own safe spaces, the lot.

What we won't fight for, is the erosion of rights for females in favour of males. Its really that simple.

What did you mean by 'except for the pronouns stuff' btw?

noeffingidea · 23/04/2017 15:03

phyllis sorry, I meant more insulting than women being called 'non men'

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 15:03

Wow, phyllis did I just read your last post correctly? You dont consider your friends (women?) being described as non males offensive? On what planet is that not offensive?

Sums it up really, Phyllis thinks it's more important for a sub set of men to be recognised as women than for half the population to be recognised as fully human.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:04

How do I define a woman? A woman is someone who has been biologically born as a woman and identifies as a woman or a trans woman who identifies as a woman. I completely understand the ambiguity and the safeguarding of children and women. Would I be afraid to be in the toilet with a trans woman identifying themselves as a woman? No. Would I fear my child's safety in the toilets under a certain age? Absolutely, in any circumstance and I wouldn't let a child of a certain age use a public toilet unsupervised, regardless of whether we were letting trans people use toilets.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:05

CharlieSierra, do not put words into my mouth. That is not true.

As for gender pronouns, I don't believe it's right for people in this thread to be referring to Caitlyn as "he" given Caitlyn has now come out and transitioned.

CoolJazz · 23/04/2017 15:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SomeDyke · 23/04/2017 15:06

"People don't pick their gender, sexuality or race. I think it's rather short sighted and hateful to say that once you're born a man or woman, that is it."
Who says you can't pick your sexuality? Some lesbian feminists have done just that! The 'born this way, I can't help it (so please be nice to me)' gay rights line is far from universal amongst the gay and lesbian community. Although of course totally understandable why so many people take this line, and why the TRAs try to take a similar approach. Except in order to do that, they have to first get us to accept that male and female brains are different.............(the science says not, cue Cordelia Fine yet again...........).

As regards gender the problems are two fold in that first you have to believe in gender and gender identity. And then believe that you can have a female gender identity in a normal male body, or that somehow a female brain with the assumed accompanying female gender identity can turn up in an otherwise normal human male......

As regards all this stuff, the gay community actually knows this the hard way. For years, actually being 'a man' or like a man was the supposed explanation for lesbians. Because of course being non-heterosexual obviously could not be normal! Similarly with gay men, who were either at times thought of as ultra-male, at other times more female. Except the gay community resisted, and now gay is normal, no weird developmental accidents or squiffy genes needed as an explanation. Because once you get your head round the idea that being attracted to the same sex is just another part of the rich human tapestry. Similarly, if not fitting conventional male (or female) stereotypes was accepted, then perhaps we wouldn't have so many people feeling they were trans. If we didn't have the idea of gender at all..........
Yes, we are born (99.9% of us) as either males or females. Apart from the reproductive possibilities that always go along with that, if everything else was just within the widest ranges of human possibilities, then what would there be to complain about? Call yourself what you like, wear what you like, adorn yourself how you like, it isn't feminists or gay people laying down those restrictions. But the conventional TRA narrative depends on having those restrictions in place.

So stop trying to co-opt lesbian and gay folks, or even intersex to try and further the trans narrative, which isn't actually a friend to any of us!

"I think it's rather short sighted and hateful to say that once you're born a man or woman, that is it." Born male or female, blame biology! Unlike many species of fish, humans cannot change their sex (although there are several developmental disorders, but being gay or lesbian or trans aren't such!).

noeffingidea · 23/04/2017 15:11

phyllisnights Howdo I define a woman?A woman is someone who has been biologically born as a woman and identifies as a woman or a transwoman who identifies as a woman*.
I take it you are aware of the correct definition of ' woman' , yes?
Yet you have invented or adopted a new meaning of the word, ignoring the accepted scientific definition.
It absolutely

CoolJazz · 23/04/2017 15:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

noeffingidea · 23/04/2017 15:14

To finish my post above -
It absolutely boggles my mind that people can be educated to university level and actually think this way. I mean seriously, do you just go round making stuff up all the time?

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:15

I haven't made up anything! You're looking at things from a different perspective.

And I don't believe anyone wants violence against trans, but I do believe that some language in here has been hateful.

CoolJazz · 23/04/2017 15:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoolJazz · 23/04/2017 15:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:22

Science? Why would the medical professions be going ahead with trans operations? Regardless of what you think about money and practice, they are bodied. They just can't go and do whatever they like and please.

noeffingidea · 23/04/2017 15:23

phyllis not you personally, but your definition of woman is made up.
There is an accepted definition of the word 'woman', and that isn't it. Please consult google or a dictionary if you are unaware.
What terms of trans hate do you believe you have read on this thread, other than male pronouns being used to refer to Caitlyn Jenner.? Please feel free to report anything you feel is hate speech.

CoolJazz · 23/04/2017 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:24

CoolJazz, you are picking and choosing. Yes, I have seen hateful language used in here. How dare someone use my name and change it to phallus, we're in a thread about a trans woman who has undergone her final surgery.

Terfer · 23/04/2017 15:29

As pointed out, Caitlyn refers to themself as male when it suits them! Her Olympic records and golf club memerbership are under her male name!

I wonder why?Hmm

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 15:30

Would I be afraid to be in the toilet with a trans woman identifying themselves as a woman? No. Would I fear my child's safety in the toilets under a certain age? Absolutely, in any circumstance and I wouldn't let a child of a certain age use a public toilet unsupervised, regardless of whether we were letting trans people use toilets.

I wouldn't be scared either. But then again I wouldn't be scared going into the mens for a pee. But this is because I have luckily had no reason in my life (so far) to fear males. A LOT of women have.

Such a complex situation. And honestly, the only answer I can think of is to add a unisex option for transpeople. Which real transpeople seem happy with in general, however transactivists argue vehemently against this solution. You have to wonder why...

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:31

Why should she change her Olympic records? She still talks about her past life, she's still a father. Surely we all know about the transitioning period and how some people feel like they're mourning the loss of that person. Caitlyn wasn't just born in 2015 and that was that.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 15:33

In an ideal world, I would love there to be male, female & unisex toilets, I just don't see it being realistic given you can struggle to go to some places and even find a toilet.

noeffingidea · 23/04/2017 15:36

Phyllis I think we're all in agreement here, no she shouldn't change her olympic records. Or be allowed to, even if she wanted to.
The slur on your user name has already been removed. If you report any other posts you consider hateful the mods will look at them.The mods rely on reporting on this forum.

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 15:39

I haven't put words into your mouth Phyllis, you have said that referring to women as 'non-men' isn't hateful, but referring to Caitlin as 'he' is.

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