Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

Critical thinking?! Have you got a masters and a professional job like I do?

Everything you quote is from thinking piece blogs. Anything you take from a reputable source is just twisted to fit your own agenda. This all sounds like scare mongering.

And I could care less about the Green party and "non-males". It's just a wasted vote party that only ever gets to power in Brighton.

Critical thinking?! Have you got a masters and a professional job like I do? actually yes I do. Totally agree Mikey it's appallingly rude to derail a thread in FWR with repeated requests for basic information.

Right then. What would everyone like to say about Caitlyn? She's right wing, probably in line with all of your views except for trans. I won't derail the thread any further, reading this thread just makes me anxious.

I wonder how far we are from some kind of tipping point where AGP as a driving factor for MTT is widely recognised?

MTTs being granted access to formerly women only places makes me anxious

If she wants clarity she should be courteous enough to start her own thread asking for the basics in Mumsnet Feminism

This is a chat forum not a university course. It is absurd to set entrance requirements.

What are the "basics" anyway? Plenty of women who call themselves feminists would disagree with much of what the majority of posters on FWR think are givens.

All the points Phyllis is making have been addressed over and over again in lots of other threads on Feminism Chat

So what? All of the main subjects are on repeat- should any new poster, and I haven't seen PhyllisNights here before, have to trawl through 1000s of posts before she is allowed to post? And if it is all old hat, then providing a precis should hardly be taxing.

Oh and just in case anyone decides to call her out on the deletions it was me who reported the jokey "misspelling" of her username. I don't particularly agree with many of her posts but those posts were low.

PeaceOut - I think CJ is very useful in showing people that AGP is a real motivating factor in most of these transitions. I personally think that there is nothing wrong with AGP as long as everyone knows and is consenting, and it does no harm (including the AGP person themselves eg mutilating healthy body parts, etc).
Unfortunately, mostly people will only be aware of this condition after they are friends/partners with them, and the AGPs fantasies overtake all social convention and rides roughshod over other peoples rights.

reading this thread just makes me anxious . Really? Reading a discussion on a forum makes you anxious? Is it the fact that some people disagree with you or something? Surely you came across different points of view while you were studying for your masters.
Everything you quote comes from thinking piece blogs. Anything you take from a reputable source is twisted to suit your own agenda.This all sounds like scaremongering
Says the poster who cites a well known, yet unqualified, rape apologist as a source for sexual assault statistics.

She's right wing, probably in line with all of your views except for trans this attitude that only the right wing don't agree with the trans rights agenda is a typical tactic. Most posters here are feminists who do not align with right wing politics. Campaigning for the protection of the rights of women and girls is not typically associated with the right wing.

In terms of what to say about Caitlin, Caitlin is an adult human male who has undergone bodily modifications to approximate the appearance of female external genitalia. This does not change Caitlin's biological sex. Additionally Caitlin, as Bruce, achieved high status as a male athlete which compounded the privileged status which was already accorded to Caitlin by virtue of being male. Furthermore, Caitlin has spoken, from a platform of privilege, on issues of concern to biological women, issues which by definition Caitlin can have no understanding. Some of the comments Caitlin has uttered have been profoundly offensive to women.

Daily Mail article 12 hours ago talking further about Caitlyns surgery:

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4436076/Caitlyn-Jenner-CONFIRMS-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

I can't read it all because my phone is playing up but I managed to read this bit:

'I wasn't less of a woman the day before I had the surgery than I was the day after I had the surgery, because that did not define who I am as a human being.'

Therein lies the issue.

Ruddy phone I hadn't finished!

I meant to say but therein lies the issue, your biology DOES define part of you as a human. Not solely but it has a huge impact. Saying you don't agree doesn't make it any less true.

'I wasn't less of a woman the day before I had the surgery than I was the day after I had the surgery, because that did not define who I am as a human being

Sounds like new age/self help gobshiite to me

Sexual orientation after transition is an interesting one. There have been several studies that show FTT people change orientation from being attracted to women to subsequently being attracted to men as well. The suggestion was that the introduction of testosterone might account for it. Testosterone being responsible for a soaring libido, etc.

And sexual fluidity perhaps being more common than people think.

With regards to Jenner. Wanting a male partner, despite not being gay, is a fairly typical presentation of AGP. It's the ultimate in 'being a woman'. And it's all about the act of performing womanhood.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Caitlyn didn't date a man. Then come out as bi when the novelty wore off and she could go back to being with women.

Datun or always secretly wanted to date men, but was unable to accept themselves as gay or bisexual, and therefore felt the need to transition, ie become a woman (according to their own identity) and therefore able to be with a man as a hetrosexual.
If that is the case for Caitlyn (and her sex life is her own business if she wants to keep it private) I actually feel sorry for her in a sense. It must be awful to go through surgery and hormmone therapy just to sleep with the people that you actually fancy..
Having said all that, I can't forget what she said about trying on her stepdaughters clothes, when she was still Bruce.
Phyllis you have no idea whether the people on this thread are left or right wing. You sound rather young (from your posts), perhaps you are unaware that people can have a whole range of opinions and beliefs which don't magically align with any one political ideology. It can make voting rather difficult.

Following on from the interview with Ellen Degeneres where Caitlyn intimated that she didn't feel comfortable with same sex marriage, it comes as no surprise now to here statements about her dating men because I guess in her head the neo vagina gives her a pass to not commit gay sex.

But hypocritically if she's always been the same woman before the op, then she was in lesbian marriages previously, wasn't she?

Hear, not here.

Everything you quote is from thinking piece blogs. Anything you take from a reputable source is just twisted to fit your own agenda. This all sounds like scare mongering.

Hows about official sources for crime rates then?

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-statistics-2015

Is this ok?

Males are a danger to females. We have sex segregation to lessen the risk. You seem to want this to be gone. All because of the feelings of some males. Some females are also a risk as you pointed out, however a much much smaller percentage. The stats show that males (as a group) are a very big danger to females (as a group). So why would you want to remove precautions that protect females from males?

I think trying to get inside Jenner's head to understand their motivation is where madness lies. Jenner is saying and doing whatever they want simply because they can. When ask why she thinks Jenner is transitioning, Germaine Greer said - for the attention. And I don't think she is far wrong.

It's not because of the feelings of some males, it's because of the feelings of trans as a whole, regardless of gender. Why are you all so insistent that a trans person will forever remain their assigned gender at birth? People don't pick their gender, sexuality or race. I think it's rather short sighted and hateful to say that once you're born a man or woman, that is it. I don't think trans people as a whole, the ones that transition and live they're life as that gender, regardless of whether they have final surgery or not, have some seedy sexual desire.

Regarding trans and changing sexuality. We are not those trans people. It must be so confusing, and I'm sure testosterone and oestrogen have something to do with it. There have been studies regarding testosterone and oestrogen in relation to gay people.

What do we expect of schools and public places? Not everywhere you go has a restroom/toilet. Do you want some compulsory standard for male, female & unisex toilets? When I've watched documentaries on trans people, old and young, the toilets mean a lot to them. They want to feel comfortable and accepted, they want to live their authentic true lives.

Jenner is transitioning, Germaine Greer said - for the attention. And I don't think she is far wrong
Absolutely, Jenner wants the limelight

Why are you all so insistent that a trans person will forever remain their assigned gender at birth?

Noone is assigned a gender at birth.

Of course people always remain the sex they were born.

And all studies show that transwomen retain male pattern violence. That meaning, they commit crimes at exactly the same rate as any other male.

I don't think Caitlyn has put herself through all of that just for attention. I don't watch KUWTK, but from what my sister in law and step mother say, Caitlyn was always in the background and trying to stay away from the limelight. It's pretty obvious that she felt uncomfortable. She didn't start using hormones in the 80s because she wanted to resurge her career, and I don't think that has been the case the last few years.

Also I don't think trans people as a whole, the ones that transition and live they're life as that gender, regardless of whether they have final surgery or not, have some seedy sexual desire

I don't think transpeople as a whole do either. But some do. And as a group, retain the same levels of committing crime as other people of their own sex. Which in turn, means transwomen are a danger to female people the same way males are a danger to female people. Speaking broadly, not on an individual level of course.