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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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11
DJBaggySmalls · 14/04/2017 12:31

I see MTT online claiming that autogynephilia doesn't exist and it gives me the rage. Women like me and birdbandit are used as a cover for autogynephilia. We are lied to and used.
The relationship is false, its a lie.

But look whats happening now; its all coming out into the open. People are starting to wake up.

BMacklin · 14/04/2017 12:34

Datun this is what I was getting at upthread. I think the general public assume there is section of people who have a real problem and these poor people need help. (Which I would argue they do, just not surgery and not being allowed into women's only spaces). But they don't realise there are all these subsets of trans that are far more sinister.

Datun · 14/04/2017 12:35

People are starting to wake up

I take solace from the fact that even transactivists are realising there is a whole section of transgenderism that gives them a bad name.

What will always remain is that you cannot tell one from the other. So hopefully just raising the profile of these people will create the right kind of debate.

If you can't have a come one, come all solution, then the result will be no one.

Datun · 14/04/2017 12:44

BMacklin

I agree. But they can't keep a lid on it for ever. They slip up all the time. they can't help it, there is no filter.

Beachcomber · 14/04/2017 13:19

Gender is not an individual thing and it is not an identity. Gender is a system. Gender is an oppressive sex based social order. Gender is patriarchy.

So what people really mean when they talk about "gender identity" is their sex based social order identification - that is, being attracted to the sex role of one of the two sex castes (or a mixture of both).

They might as well say "patriarchal identification" or "male supremacy social identification".

Gender identity is a meaningless term. "Gender" is a euphemism for sex role as awarded to sex class and "identity" is incorrect, because in patriarchy, identity is an external thing, imposed by a social order - it is not under the control of the individual.

No one in patriarchy gets to choose or construct a sex identity. Everyone is categorised according to their biological sex and their compliance or non compliance with the role awarded to it.

Transgenderism on the part of men may look like gender / sex role non compliance but it isn't really. It is just a different way of complying to the classic one. You can see this perfectly in someone like Jenner - he is being very masculine and dominating by imposing his male fantasy and male fetish on the world.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 13:25

he is being very masculine and dominating by imposing his male fantasy and male fetish on the world
And it does make my flesh crawl a bit to know he'll get a little perverted frisson everytime someone uses his 'inner woman' name.

Beachcomber · 14/04/2017 13:44

Yeah, which is also very masculine behaviour.

AGP is just another way of treating women as the sex class and as "other".

So far so patriarchal.

splendide · 14/04/2017 13:51

So do people object to AGP in principle? I don't really understand.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 13:56

Which people?

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 14:14

My personal objection to AGP is when it moves from being a fantasy safely in the confines of a man''s mind, to a fetish they want to act out. Having said that I don't mind Grayson Perry who is- I take it- a transvestite AGP, because he seems pretty down to earth about it and doesn't insist everyone else plays along and calls him Claire, he doesn't embody a pornified version of a woman, and I don't object to a bloke in a dress who calls himself that. I don't get the vibe he gets off on a belief he is tricking anyone.

For me the line is crossed when a fetishist tries manipulate or force others into playing along with his fetish, for example becomes an exhibitionist, voyeur, etc. It's the narcissism, sexual obsessions, deception, manipulation, prevelence in sex criminals and misogyny I find bothersome. But I don't know what it is for others.

splendide · 14/04/2017 14:16

Thanks lions that makes sense. I suppose it's always a bit unsettling if someone is constantly living out their sexual fantasies, like bdsm couples where they use leashes in public.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 14:25

It's funny Splendide but I would feel a lot less unsettled seeing a couple where the bloke is on a leash/lead (though a woman- not so sure), than a bloke by himself in a dress in the ladies toilets (or new unisex toilets for that matter).

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 14:33

I also think it would be horrible to be in a relationship with an AGP like birdbandit and djbaggysmalls these periodic 'affairs' the man has with himself. So creepy and messed up.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 14:42

Additionally, it would piss me off to be in the park and stumble across a couple doing some bdsm, if I sensed they got off on my discovering them in any way. It would make me feel used and creeped out.

DJBaggySmalls · 14/04/2017 15:05

splendide Fri 14-Apr-17 13:51:07
So do people object to AGP in principle? I don't really understand.

No one should start a relationship or enter a marriage under false pretenses. That includes undercover police, bigamists, and men who have AGP. Its abusive.
No one should act out their sexual fantasy/fetish with people who are not aware or not fully informed and consenting. Not in private or public Its abusive.

Its perhaps easier to see that frotting and ejaculating over people or objects is unacceptable. Well AGP is frotting with knickers on.

Original poster
Terfinator · 14/04/2017 15:29

I just checked the DM again. They have 3 articles on CJ today! The one about Ellen, and then these two:

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4410824/Caitlyn-Jenner-sends-wishes-Survivor-s-Zeke-Smith.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4410640/Kylie-Jenner-gets-help-Caitlyn-revamps-glam-room.html

I do wonder what the DM's motives are here? I wonder if a big story on CJ is going to break soon or something?

OP posts:
Datun · 14/04/2017 15:34

The problem with AGP isn't so much that it's a fetish, it's what it signifies. A fetish for fur, for instance, isn't harmful (unless it's real fur.)

Would I have a problem with a bloke practising his cross dressing fetish in the privacy of his own home? Mostly yes. If it was very unusual and confined to a small section, maybe not so much. But I don't think it is. I believe it's quite prevalent.

It's a product of harmful sex role stereotyping, as someone upthread said.

It's using the objectification of women as an arousal tool. If women weren't seen as merely sex objects, the sexual component to AGP wouldn't exist. It would just be the personal preference for the colour, cut, style, comfort of female clothing.

And AGP specifically is a nasty one. The fantasy usually involves the subjugation and humiliation of the person themself. They see women as victims and get off on assuming that role.

'Forced feminisation' and 'sissy porn' play directly into the idea that women are there to be used.

The jarring dichotomy of a man wanting to be humiliated and victimised, and then becoming aggressive and misogynistic if denied is both weird and scary to behold.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 16:04

The standard line seems to be, and was offered this one, was that he thought he could repress it, and didn't want to be rejected. Thing is, I have seen people recommended saying precisely this on Crossdressers.com. so, hmmmm. I call bullshit.

Obviously my right to reject wasn't as important.

I think he and I assume they, genuinely don't consider other people (kids/partners) at all in the highs of this. It is just not something that comes into their orbit, it is a pink fog (official term) of crazy self absorption. I can't think of a more narcissistic act (using the classical rather psychological definition there, I am not qualified to call him that) than to create a persona within, and of yourself to fall in love with.

But there is also a massive self loathing aspect as well, it is complicated. But the self loathing thing, I find that difficult to truly believe, it seems so manipulative, suicide threats etc. He makes a Lazarus grade recovery when he gets what he wants. But it is mania, I think at the time, he does believe his threats.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 16:08

djyou have my most sincere sympathies. I really hoped you were going to say no kids, it was an age ago and that you had been able to leg it away.

It's the massive cringe factor as well isn't it? The knowledge that H is stoating about the internet, affecting a California girl style of prose, "heygirrl/ hugs n kisses y'all" and calling himself a porn name, asking for clothes advice etc. It makes my inner sex organs scramble to get away and my legs clench shut. Grim.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 16:12

Datun, yes the role play is all about being a submissive sexy thing, devoid of worries, a sex slave. The stuff I read H posting on whisper was so unlike anything I "thought" was his thing.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 16:13

Gawd BirdBandit and DJ my sympathies to you both.

ladyballs · 14/04/2017 16:13

datun they're open about selling to cross dressers and cissies.

It's obvious that they're personally getting their rocks off openly wearing women's sexy undies in public. I want to buy tights or whatever, not be an unwilling participant in their fetish.

ladyballs · 14/04/2017 16:14

Flowers to bird and dj

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 16:17

The women as victims thing. When I look back at stuff he tried to get me to do, when he was in this fog, but before I knew, make me shudder in realisation. He was using me as a prop.

It used to be a funny joke, how much I look like his sister. Not so funny now. I feel that for the whole of our relationship there has been another factor I wasn't aware of. I have been a projection of what he wanted to be. A prop, an unwitting and unwilling accomplice in a sex game in his head.