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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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11
GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 16:27

A prop, an unwitting and unwilling accomplice in a sex game in his head.
This is what I can't stand. AGPs, exhibitionists, voyeurs, etc, want to make the people around them into unwilling accomplices in their sex games. It is so entitled to sexually impose yourself on others like that- whether they are aware of what you are up to or not - it is a huge act of disrespect to them as a human being.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 16:29

rogue there has to be a joke in there about having cake and eating it. Uggghhh.

Datun · 14/04/2017 16:38

Bird

Why is always women who are on the other end of this shit.

For me, I think the worst part would be the betrayal. He may have had this fetish for years. Or suspected it. It's an omission he should not have ever allowed.

And you are in an impossible situation. Sure, you can have sympathy for someone who has a condition that is beyond their control, that they are constantly wrestling with. But where does that leave you and your feelings?

I would alternate between rage and despair. And there is no room for you, for what you want, need. For your recovery.

You are either accused of hurting someone else, or you are hurting yourself.

If it's any consolation, the women I have read about do emerge stronger. Uncompromising. Sure of themselves and their decisions. Happier. And free.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 17:08

Rougue that is so depressing. The fact that they so soon teach them to go into the other sex's toilets, and the whole school is supposed to make such a big deal of their 'transition'. It would put the kid under so much pressure. Its like proposing to someone on national TV so they can't say no - how would they change their minds and go back if they had doubts?

WhereYouLeftIt · 14/04/2017 18:21

GuardianLions call my cynical (I am) but to me it smacks more of the video suicide bombers make before they act. And I've always suspected that they are forced encouraged to make the video by their 'handlers' - so as to make it harder for them to change their minds and back out of the bombing.

So who's behind this little shenanigan? Who's bright idea was it? Who's pulling the strings? It could always just be some well0meaning idiot's idea, but like I said - I'm cynical.

Datun · 14/04/2017 18:27

GuardianLions

The whole ideology is about how women can't say no.

No you're not a woman.
No you can't redefine female centric language.

No you're not allowed in my bathroom.
No I won't tell lies to collude in your fantasy.
And young women say no to objectification, by transitioning.

Mumsnet has been fond, in the past, of saying that no is a complete sentence.

I used to think, oh that's a bit rude. Surely we can phrase it a little more diplomatically. Just to get our point across without being impolite.

Well, no.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 18:27

So who's behind this little shenanigan? Who's bright idea was it? Who's pulling the strings?

In the article it claims it is a couple of abusive, controlling, limited well-meaning parents who transed their kid, behind it.

Datun · 14/04/2017 18:35

That cake link is about GIRES. Who repeatedly asked the intersex society to collaborate with them.

The Intersex society thought about it and decided against it as the reasons why intersex people might have surgery and trans-people have surgery are completely different.

They politely said no.

They were put under repeated and regular pressure to change their minds. They were asked to collaborate in a programme for horizon.

On viewing the content, they said no.

They were pressured again to form an alliance.

Eventually they wrote an open, public letter explaining the history and saying once more that they were not in any way aligned with transgenderism. They requested vehemently, to not be used as an endorsement for the ideology.

GIRES comes across like some gargantuan trans mass-marketing machine. Using any means possible to promote the cause.

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 19:15

I've read this thread with interest. It's very important to me to listen to women talk about this subject, and what the many posters have said in this thread resonates with me greatly.

I am transgender. I'm not a woman. I'm transgender. That is a good enough and valid identification for me. I have no idea what it "feels like to be a woman", for I am not one. And it annoys me greatly when I hear men who regard themselves as transgender say that they "feel" like a woman. Even after transitioning, such a statement means nothing other than what they think it feels like to be a woman.

I will never call myself a woman. For I am not, and no amount of surgery will ever validate such a statement being uttered from my mouth.

I recall watching the show Big Questions in which a transgender person (dressed in women's clothes), recited a tale about going into women's toilets in a supermarket. This person's reasoning for not going into the men's toilets were, quote "not wanting to scare men". I simply could not believe what I heard. This person was lying. What they really meant was that they were too scared themselves to go into the men's toilet, and so, irrespective of how they were presented, it was women who had to deal with this person's own, personal burden.

I myself have never once in my life entered a woman's toilet. For one very simple reason. No matter how I am dressed, I'm not a woman. For me, it is as simple as that. I've been threatened and assaulted in the men's toilets. The solution to that is not to enter a woman's space and put the "problem" upon them, but rather to face up to the men who are the ones who are causing the problem.

A poster a few pages back mentioned crossdressers.com. That is a horrible site, full of autogynefiles who have female partners who are treated with such disrespect. Should their partner accept them, or show a mere glimpse of accepting them, then the misogyny shines through with the replies that they are met. "She is a keeper, look after her" is the tantamount response. The implicit meaning of such a response being simply that a woman who doesn't accept is not worth keeping. This just expresses the self-centered ideals of these people. It's all about them. It always will be about them. It is not about compromise. And should it be accepted by their partners, then the boundaries of that acceptance will be pushed and pushed until the man gets it all his own way.

"Buy her flowers and tell her how much you love her" is the reply to those who's partners show the mere hint of acceptance. When a partner doesn't show any inkling of acceptance, those very same words are never uttered in their replies. I have never read a reply to a thread on that site where the partner doesn't accept them that has a positive word or even just a respectful consideration for what their partners are actually going through.

I hate it all. Years ago I thought I found a word that allowed me to express who I am, and to know that I'm not alone. That I'm not a freak. But that word (transgender) has no meaning for me anymore, because it's been taken over by people who are intent on defining it for me, and defining it in such a way that I simply can not relate to.

I am on side with you all in this thread and the concerns that you raise resonate with me greatly. I was born male. I like to express myself in a way that people would expect a woman to present. But that does not, nor ever will, make me a woman. I am a gay male, who likes "feminine" things. It was always harder for me to find a male partner because gay men are, by their very nature, attracted to men. They are not attracted to a man who likes to present himself in the way that I do. Now it is even harder, because the rhetoric coming out from the transactivists is stating that I should actually be calling myself a straight woman. If I was attracted to women, I should be labeling myself a lesbian.

It's sickening to me. Why can't I just be accepted for who I actually am. A transgender person? At least in the sense that I thought the word "transgender" actually meant?

People have talked at length in this thread about fetish. The truth is, in my situation, I am nothing but a fetish for other men. The irony being that I have been objectified in the same way that many of you hate being objectified as women. All I want is to be me. And my annoyance isn't towards any of you. It's towards the trans community to which I supposedly belong. It is them that is making it harder for me. Not any of you.

RogueBiscuit · 14/04/2017 19:50

The irony being that I have been objectified in the same way that many of you hate being objectified as women

No, you haven't. And it's ludricous to suggest so.

BetsyM00 · 14/04/2017 19:57

I'm confused ripples101. You say "I am transgender. I'm not a woman." and "I am a gay male".

Which is it? What does transgender even mean anymore?

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 19:58

Ok. Even though you know nothing of my situation, and have no knowledge of how I have been treated, I'll take that particular comment back. I'm not here to argue.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 20:07

Ripples
I know it is none of my business, but have you done any body morphication with surgery or hormones to look more female?
I'm not asking to be confrontational, more about the quandary you find yourself in around partners treating you as a fetish.

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 20:07

Betsy

Sex and gender are two different things for me. My sex is male. My gender identify is transgender. I'm gay because I'm attracted to members of my own sex

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 20:09

That cake link is about GIRES
Argh!

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 20:12

Can I just say, I don't want to turn this into a personal discussion about me. That was never my intention in posting my post.

My intention was rather to state that, even though I identify as transgender, the concerns that have been expressed in this thread are concerns that resonate greatly with me. In a nutshell, I simply do not like, nor agree with, the direction that the transgender community is taking.

RogueBiscuit · 14/04/2017 20:16

Ok. Even though you know nothing of my situation, and have no knowledge of how I have been treated, I'll take that particular comment back. I'm not here to argue

I do know because you told me. You told me you are male. So you have not had a lifetime experience of being objectified. You've had a lifetime of male privilege and you still now have that priveledge. Wearing female clothing does not remove male privilege.

You may have been objectified but it won't be comparable to the experience women have. Who has objectified and fetishized you? I'm troubled by your description of violence in toilets also. Did you report this ?

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:19

ripples I completely believe you about being objectified by men, it's all part of the spiralling of a porn fetish. A few weeks ago there were a load of threads linking back to a site where men review prostitutes, they talked about how they needed and needed to do more niche things to satisfy their wants, to recreate the original "hit" and I am afraid, along with 2, then 3 and anal and fisting etc, sex with a Trans woman, or "chick with a dick" is on the list.

Men are vile. I am yet to be convinced any good ones are left.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:20

So, not the female experience, but yes objectification.

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:23

But....I think people like Anna Lees (get it sheesh) and Paris Lees (another eyerollingly crass and teenage boy attempt at a sex pun) who act as spokes people for the Trans movement ADD to the hypersexualisation, they fetishise their and trans peoples "identity".

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:25

What I want to know is, where are the supposed good guys?

Every time there is a thread like this, people come on and say, "I am trans but not me guv'nor." How come we don't hear you telling the TRAs to cock off (pun intended).

birdbandit · 14/04/2017 20:26

Why are you allowing this to happen in your name?

ripples101 · 14/04/2017 20:26

I never meant to imply that I had had a lifetime experience of being objectified.

But I have been objectified. And I do not like it. So even though my experience doesn't compare, my experience has made me empathise and realise what it is that women DO have to go through throughout their lifetime.

I have NOT had a lifetime of male privilege. I have had a lifetime of privileged males belittling me because I don't match up to their standard of what a male should be.

Batghee · 14/04/2017 20:26

This is a really harsh thread. You are calling someones vagina a 'fuck hole'!!! She is a real person whether you like her or not spare her some human decency. I dont agree with her politics and i dont particularly like her but this is a horrendous way to speak about a human being.

Some people are born without ovaries are their vaginas just 'fuck holes' as well or does that only apply to transwomen?

picklemepopcorn · 14/04/2017 20:32

Batghee, that's the point! It isn't a vagina. It's an artificially created orifice which has no purpose beyond, erm, having a dick in it. What would you like to call it?