Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
RogueBiscuit · 13/04/2017 00:01

transvestite and transgender are not the same thing

Ok. Then fuck off over to reddit and inform all the transvestites and fetishists that they are not really transgender. Tell them that they are causing serious problems for the genuine trans people who want to live their lives peacefully. Take your argument over there to the source of the problem. Why are you here ranting at women to accept it, all of it? Do you deny these people exist? Would you like some links so that you can argue with them about what is and is not transgender?

Because this is the thing , I don't give a fuck why they do it. I haven't got time to work out who has a fetish, who is genuine, who just wants a piss, and who is going to wipe their cum on the toilet paper. And neither has anybody else.

If you don't like that a bunch of fetishists are giving genuine trans people a bad name take it up with them.

And while you're there, ask them, why , as people considering themselves to be women, they are not equally afraid of men pretending to be women perving on them or attacking them in women's spaces. Because I've never heard a transwoman share this concern about the male invasion of female spaces.

Datun · 13/04/2017 00:30

Great link charlie. Very articulate.

I'd like to add to rogue's heartfelt post.

Yes it's entirely true that we can't tell a genuine transsexual from a fetishist chancer. No one can. Because it's an identity, innit.

I don't want anyone who is not born female to share my space and my sex. I don't really care how authentic they may, or may not be.

This issue has shown me misogyny like I've never seen before. And I'm not interested in giving it either head space or actual space.

RogueBiscuit · 13/04/2017 02:22

In 2015 there was just under 50,000 convictedsex offenders in the uk . We know that most assaults are not reported, and of those that are, very few result in a prosecution. Therefore we really cannot really know just how many sex offenders there are, or who they are. Most women I know, have suffered a sexual assault, myself included.

What we know about those convicted offenders is this Transgender fetish is the largest sexual disorder reported in convicted sex offenders.(4) Almost 100% of convicted sex offenders have a documented history of transvestism, crossdressing, free-dressing, Autogynephilia, transsexualism – in other words: TRANSGENDER

genderidentitywatch.com/transwomen-sexualized-violence/

Considering just 0·3 of the population identifys as trans , the suggestion that we open up women's spaces to accomadate them (and all sex offenders)is really really fucking stupid and dangerous.

Hang on a minuite , I hear the apologists shrieking. Do I really think someone would go to the trouble of pretending to be trans just to get into women's spaces? Yes I fucking do. But before we get into that lets look at what it means to be trans and what effort it takes. It means saying "I'm a woman" and possibly wearing female clothing. We just have to take their word for it.

It really is no trouble saying those words and donning a dress. Youtube is full of such people declaring themselves female. Sex offenders go to a LOT of trouble to assault, groom and molest. Years in some cases. Anyone who thinks walking into the ladies in women's clothes is too much trouble for these people are either stupid or abuse apologists.

Trans rights really do trump all. Women should risk their safety and welcome ALL MEN into their spaces on the off chance that one of them has dysphoria. How incredibly selfish and narcissistic. So what if they do? Why should I compromise my safety for a fucking stranger? I don't give a fuck.

How do you propose keeping offenders and fetishists out of women's spaces Raw?

RogueBiscuit · 13/04/2017 03:04

Another thing, I frequently see people saying that they have genuine sympathy for those with dysphoria, and how they wouldn't mind the genuine ones in their spaces.

Well I don't feel sorry for them and I do mind. Not my problem. Feeling sorry for them and taking it on has brought us here. It's made it our problem. Why should millions of women in the uk lose their spaces because a very small minority of men have body dysphoria?

Is dysphoria more crippling than say schizophrenia? I don't have any sympathy for someone with dysphoria who thinks the solution is millions of women giving up their rights.

PoochSmooch · 13/04/2017 06:50

I've been deleted again!

I was super careful not to misgender C. Jenner, but I was free with my opinion on the morality of using your 10 year old daughter's clothes in your sexual fantasies and then chortling about what a jolly jape it is.

I doubt that Caitlyn is going to come on here and read what I wrote, so I don't understand why I was deleted. Disappointing.

CharlieSierra · 13/04/2017 07:07

I've noticed several extremely rapid and questionable deletions Pooch, you'd almost think that someone was on standby. Very jumpy. Hmm

Rogue and Datun I totally agree with you there, that's exactly how we got here and we have to stop being polite. I do think women have every right to 'gatekeep' womanhood, and I'm sick of hearing otherwise.

Datun · 13/04/2017 07:49

Instead of reporting posts, I wish people would question the content so there can be an exchange.

Meanwhile, I was thinking about something last night having read that article about autogynephiles who phone up sex lines.

I was struck by the way she talked about some of them getting off on talking about 'women's things'.

It occurred to me that talking to women on here on say the health and beauty boards, or the relationship boards might well be something an autogynephile would do.

You could be happily talking about mascara, or worried about sex with your husband, and exchanging opinions with someone whose motives are dishonest.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 08:41

Hi people I haven't rtft but yesterday read the interview with Bailey about Jenner along with both the blog www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170124/ and the whole book www.amazon.com/Galileos-Middle-Finger-Heretics-Activists/dp/1594206082?tag=mumsnetforum-21 by Alice Dreger about the actions [trying to isolate/discredit/ruin the lives/insist 'you are for or against us or else intimidation] of a few key MTT's to suppress the scientific study and media awareness of AGP in favour of the 'feminine essence' (ie I was always a woman on the inside with a female brain) model that a) many trans don't feel actually tallies with their experience, and b) also is not backed up by science.

I know this is a long post, but in Bailey''s view, autogynophiles are genuine trans and that AGP causes gender dysphoria and leads to a desire for SRS if the fantasies are about having female genitalia rather than just getting turned on by wearing women's clothes.

So basically people are wrong to think it is 'either' AGP 'or' gender dysphoria. AGP is the cause of it in heterosexual MTTs according to Bailey.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 10:03

Datun
It occurred to me that talking to women on here on say the health and beauty boards, or the relationship boards might well be something an autogynephile would do.

I think there are a fair few perverted males who come on MN for sexual gratification. There was a thread recently about prostitution whereally a bloke started to dominate it, boasting about his exploits and clearly getting off on drawing a primarily female audience of mumsnetters into becoming his wank fantasy props against their will.

There are a lot of pervy blokes out there - I think there should be a special name for that kind of use of mn and be a reason for giving them the boot. Something like 'covert sex trolling'.

BigDeskBob · 13/04/2017 11:08

I agree with everything rogue has said. The idea that men won't go to extreme length for sexual fetishes is laughable (even thinking MTT always go to extreme lengths is naive). We have prostitution, extreme porn and what's the rape conviction rate? Even those in possession of child abuse aren't given prison sentences. No one is bothered about the sexual thrill a MTT gets out of being among women and girls.

And of course men, including MTT, get a kick out of posting on these boards, why are they even here? I think many of the long, long 'my story' posts MTT love to post here are posted to give themselves a thrill.

ButtonmushroomEx · 13/04/2017 11:43

Name change but I completely agree with the posters highlighting the sexual thrill of acting like a woman.

A few years ago when I was single I joined an adult site for hookups, non-commital type relationships.

I am bi-curious so it was a way to explore my sexuality a bit.

There was a Chatroom where members could speak. Every time I went on it seemed there were far more women on there in the chat room than seemed possible to be registered on the site.

They would always approach you to chat about sex. Usually 3 or 4 each time I went on would contact me.

But the conversations never rang true...it just wasn't a woman speaking to another woman. Definitely males posing as women for kicks, you could kind of tell from the conversation.

If you asked for a live cam (just with clothes on just to see who you were speaking to, you didn't even have to show your face), they either made strange excuses or disappeared and blocked you.

Some I'd just repeat the same sentence to with any questions- you are a man, you are a man. Then they'd get really aggressive and abusive with you, blowing their cover.

I also got sent, not by request a LOT of photos of guys in women's clothing and underwear. Most of them married.

I was really surprised at how common it was.

HmmOkay · 13/04/2017 11:47

I thought that, BigDeskBob.

Out of all the boards on Mumsnet, you are much more likely to find a man on Feminism and Women's Rights than anywhere else, even Dadsnet I suspect. And they always want to dictate the terms of the debate.

It does put me off posting a bit really. I look at some threads that start out really interesting then some bloke comes along with the epic merail and I don't want to feed into it.

I wouldn't post on Dadsnet or any transgender forum or even a golf forum elsewhere because those boards are not there for my benefit. I wouldn't turn up at a mosque or a church and start telling people that I am an atheist.

You do have to wonder at the motives of those people who come on here. They are certainly getting something out of it. Sexual thrill from trying to put women in their place and getting off on the women's obvious discomfort? Perhaps.

It is the online equivalent of the man who was always trying on nighties in a female clothes shop, isn't it?

Sigh.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 12:09

Sexual thrill from trying to put women in their place and getting off on the women's obvious discomfort?

I agree, and I think it is a power trip - someone on another thread said something that made me laugh out loud. That we should speak to misogynists the way they speak to us like "cool story Bro - now go out to the garage and change my tyre"... the reason it made me laugh so much was because it was such a shockingly disrespectful way to speak to someone ... and incongruous to picture the role reversal. Genuine status quo up-ending humour.
The fact that just one male thinks is okay to speak to women like this is shocking - but the fact 'make me a sandwich' is common enough to be a short hand, shows that there are a number of males who get sadistic pleasure out of highlighting/exercising their greater social power over us. Wading into feminist discussion (women examining their social disadvantages in relation to men) can provide them with a similar sadistic thrill of dominating women. Creeps.

Datun · 13/04/2017 12:14

GuardianLions

Although that Alice Dreger post was long, it was absolutely riveting.

Several things struck me. Firstly the extraordinary and psychopathic lengths to which transactivists will go to deny a sexual motivation.

Secondly, that contrary to a lot of online chat, Michael Bailey was completely vindicated.

Thirdly, one can't help but notice that the entire controversy was conducted by, about and on behalf of men. In my head I was thinking good God, where do you find the bloody time?

Lastly, one of the central themes was that AGP should be brought out into the open and recognised as it is considered harmless.

At no point were women as a class, even mentioned, much less considered. AGP might be harmless to the possessor, and the surgery might alleviate symptoms, but the practice of it is directly and immensely harmful to women.

Not only the obvious situation of an autogynephile practising his fetish in a female environment, but the idea that women exist as an erotic fantasy in the minds of men with a fetish.

The very existence of the fetish is detrimental to women. But all viewpoints were only those of men. (I even had to double check Alice Dredger because I wondered about her. Although I have heard of her, I suddenly wondered whether she was a man or a woman.)

Homosexual transsexuals and autogynephilic transwomen might well disagree profoundly on their claim to be the holder of the title 'genuine transgender', but this has fuck all to do with women.

None of them are women, and the more I read, the more the chasm widens between the two.

Women are seen as nothing more than an identity for men to exploit.

Pontificating endlessly on whether womanhood is an internal essence, a fetish, an aid to happiness, a goal to achieve or a disguise, is an insult to women of a magnitude that is utterly unacceptable.

I am a living, breathing woman and I will not be purloined. I am very angry.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 12:31

Yes Datun
I get the feeling Bailey is one of those liberal sexists sexologists who believe all sex is good, all sexual expression is good unless it is overtly non-consensual - with sexist bias against women. He was going to do his next book on FTTs I think I am not sure if he did.
Dreger, I think is trying to be very selective in her language because she doesn't want to offend the Mtts who cooperated with her research and had their lives ruined by the transactivists. But I think her detailed descriptions of the Mtts exhibitionism, fetishism, etc showed that she thinks there is compelling evidence that they are AGPs. I think she was just trying to tread really carefully and stick to the scientific enquiry of this actual situation already informed by Bailey''s sexist bias without widening it.

Datun · 13/04/2017 12:44

GuardianLions

I don't understand why they seem to be more upset about the label autogynephile than they are about judging the behaviour itself.

Unless it's for purely scientific reasons and trying to categorise things down to the nth degree.

I see transwomen waxing lyrical about their fetishist behaviour, enjoying it, talking about it, acknowledging it, and then denying outright that they are autogynephiles.

Women aren't going to give a toss about how the behaviour is categorised.

I was interested to see, yet again, the many studies confirming that most, if not all, transwomen who are attracted to women have AGP.

And I might have misread this but they also confirmed that after surgery the sexual compulsion decreases (which I had already heard), but the conclusion was they had reached their goal and therefore had nothing left to sexually strive for.

I would have thought that the ongoing presence of oestrogen would've accounted for it, myself.

Datun · 13/04/2017 12:45
  • and the lack of testosterone producing testicles
BMacklin · 13/04/2017 12:59

I'm angry about all this. But looking online and in the media I feel so hopeless and I feel like the battle is already lost. My husband asked me to stop reading about it as I find it so upsetting but I explained to him that as a woman I don't have the luxury of ignoring it.

BMacklin · 13/04/2017 12:59

Sorry that was a garbled rant!

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 13:01

Having said that. I think the TRAs are right. If it became widely accepted that Mtts are sexually motivated, all public support for them 'living as women' would drain away over night.
Perhaps in their echo chamber of sexologists, both Bailey and Dreger are unaware of how much the public hates a perv, and how biased the study of 'sexual behaviour' is towards males, because males do all the weird, fucked-up, perverted shit sexologists find fascinating to study.

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 13:01

Sorry just got distracted mid post will read yours now

CharlieSierra · 13/04/2017 13:02

Pontificating endlessly on whether womanhood is an internal essence, a fetish, an aid to happiness, a goal to achieve or a disguise, is an insult to women of a magnitude that is utterly unacceptable absolutely this. It enrages me, and highlights clearly what men really think about women and provides indisputable evidence that feminism has merely scratched the surface.

Re the posts about why men and transwomen post here, to me it's akin to me going onto the litter tray and starting a thread about disliking cats and criticising cat owners. Its trolling, pure and simple, whether the motivation is sexual or just plain argumentative, it's rude, disruptive and it's trolling. They should be deleted and repeat offenders banned. It must be against guidelines to wade into a discussion for the sole purpose of derailing it, but it happens all the time. There is a clear difference between having a different point of view and making an argument for it and trolling. MRAs are obviously not posting in FWR in the spirit of the site they just want to piss off feminists.

BigDeskBob · 13/04/2017 13:02

I think agps see their behaviour as typical of any women. I used to be an a gender critical/trans debate sub and they claimed to be doing nothing different to a women who looks at herself in the mirror before a night out and thinks she looks good. They don't see themselves as doing anything usual, they just think that the label is given to shame them. Its yet another example of transphobia. Hmm

GuardianLions · 13/04/2017 13:06

Take comfort Bmacklin that we are far freer to discuss this now than a couple of years ago. I believe the tide is likely to be turning.

QuentinSummers · 13/04/2017 13:17

it's rude, disruptive and it's trolling. They should be deleted and repeat offenders banned. tbf to MNHQ they have banned everyone I've reported, maybe we aren't using the report Button enough?

Swipe left for the next trending thread