Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

Datun and Charlie I agree. I think the issue TRA''s were tackling back then was the right to have SRS. AGPs weren't considered real trans, therefore were deemed medically unsuitable for SRS. Both Bailey and Dreger conclude that SRS should be based on whether it makes the individual 'happier' not whether they are a demonstrably 'authentic' transperson. So their concerns were more about challenging the medical profession's hair-splitting around trans.
After a Mtt having SRS, I am not sure what either of them think about living as a 'woman', or how such a thing impinges on the lives of actual women and the wider community.

BMacklin

Reading old sites, I saw this transformation almost take place.

AGP was justified by saying when women get dressed up to go out on a date they get excited, it's the same thing. When they look at themselves wearing a sexy cocktail dress, they get excited, it's the same thing. When they imagine themselves having sex with a hot lover, they get excited, that's AGP.

The blurring of lines between admiring yourself in the mirror and wanking off into a pair of women's knickers was unbelievable.

Women may well get excited before a hot date, they may even get aroused. But they are getting aroused about the possibility of that date, not their existence as a woman. Otherwise you may as well not bother going out!

I've heard men in the past say, as a joke, gosh if I had boobs like that I wouldn't bother going out. The intense interest in and objectification of 'parts' is a purely male thing.

It's on a par with men who send 'dick pics'. They truly think that a woman is going to receive that and get turned on. The fact that top shelves are not littered with magazines for women containing pictures of penises, seems to pass them by.

GuardianLions

Yes, I agree. It was all about getting past the gatekeepers. It wasn't considered a sufficiently good reason for surgery.

And they may have a point. It's a very individual desire. And surgery costs time and money. I certainly don't think gatekeeping on the NHS should be controversial.

If you want to pay for it yourself, go ahead.

BigDesk
they claimed to be doing nothing different to a women who looks at herself in the mirror before a night out and thinks she looks good. They don't see themselves as doing anything usual

That just gave me the rage!

Probably true, Quentin.

I very rarely report. But the usual suspects ALWAYS report, I've noticed. If one of the usual suspects comes along and starts posting, you can guarantee that there will be a lot of deletions within about 20 minutes because they have reported so many things. I suspect they enjoy getting the attention of mummy (MNHQ) also.

As datum mentioned upthread, where do they find the bloody time? What a way to live your life.

datum? I meant Datun.

I hope so GuardianLions I was thinking the other day that it needs comedians to point out the insanity in this, as I find they are connected to large and diverse audiences and tend to get people talking and thinking about issues. Today I read Ricky Gervais mentions the daftness of the ideaology of "if I say I am something then I AM" in his "Humanity" tour so I'm hoping so (I've not seen it but that's what I read).

I can't get over the feeling that women are just being laughed at for being worried though and that scares me.

I do find it annoying when MRAs come along and derail, particularly when the discussion is getting meaty and interesting.

On the other hand, I am always acutely aware of the number of lurkers on these threads. MRAs usually do a sterling job, all on their own, of justifying feminism.

Yes Datum I agree. As a regular lurker here I actually find it useful!

Pooch there's far too many deletions. I feel mumsnet are censoring people and they need to stop. It's really not right that men come trolling on here (and it is trolling) and when we don't want to play along we get deleted.

I really don't know why mumsnet is supporting it. It's bullying plain and simple, and offensive on every level. Why should any of us be forced to pretend something that isn't true? Why are the feelings of one man on here far more important than the countless women?
I wish these men would fuck off. It's just typical of what's happening on a wider scale.

Another thing that needs to stop is all this bloody sympathizing and pretending to give a shit. I really noticed it on the thread where people were contacting their mps and its a common theme on nearly all threads about it ie I have complete sympathy for the genuine sufferers of dysphoria it's a terrible condition

I don't believe that women, human adults with jobs families, and their own problems are really sat around wringing their hands about men they don't know who may have dysphoria. Isn't it terrible! Not really, I don't give a shit and I suspect it's all part of the expectations that women are ever caring Samaritans.

There's plenty of people with severe mental health problems. There's also plenty of people with horrendous medical conditions. I'll save my sympathy for those people. I just wish women would stop pretending to give a toss because it just perpetuates the idea that we should put put men first.

Simple maths sums it up.
0.3 per cent of men have dysphoria.
Every 90 second a woman is sexually assaulted
Two women a week are killed.

I know where my sympathies lie.

Rogue I completely agree. Why do people have so much sympathy for this psychosexual disorder?
I really do have sympathy for people with schizophrenia and other debilitating conditions. And I do have sympathy for people who have been traumatised by sexual abuse into wanting to modify their bodies.
But sexual obsessions don't cut it for me. They have a lot more to do with deviant criminal activity like voyeurism/exhibitionism/sexual assault, than managing a mental illness imo.

Rogue it's hard as someone like me whose only recently come to this. You are told there are people out there with "genuine" problems who need help. And it's in my nature to want to help people who need it. It's not until you look into their definition of "problem" and their "solution" and think about it that you realise what you are supporting.

I used to listen to the Guilty Feminist podcast (but stopped because they started using the word cis which, after being on here and reading lots irritated me no end) anyway, there was a point when they said on there that they had been trying to be "inclusive" (I.e . wanting to include transwomen) and not upset anyone but it seemed some feminists were upset by this. I'm paraphrasing hugely but my point is that I agree with you and that there are too many women trying to not offend anyone. Even on a podcast ABOUT AND FOR WOMEN.

I have only come to the conclusions that I have by reading (you fine bunch!) and thinking about it all.

RogueBiscuit

I disagree with nothing in your post.

However, until there is more open debate about the ideology and until more people understand the negative aspects I don't think it is productive to go in all guns blazing.

People, on mumsnet, for instance are acutely aware of the detrimental nature of the trans ideology. But if you are a general member of the public who has done no research at all, and are therefore not up to speed, an instantly damning viewpoint would be alienating.

There is a lot of 'what harm can it do, live and let live, I know a lovely transwoman' going on. I don't want these people to leave the debate, I want them to listen.

The ideology never, ever stand up to scrutiny. I think supplying facts, links, evidence, is a persuasive way to engage people.

Let people get angry on their own. It doesn't take long.

For what it's worth, I do think that gender dysphoria must be awful. And I don't feel hatred towards law abiding trans-people.

I do vehemently disagree with the basic premise.

If, suddenly, provision was made for trans-people separately to those of men and women, I would consider that a decent compromise. Not because I agree with it, but because the activism would stop and the movement would die down.

I don't care trans people on any personal level. I do want it to stop being political.

Datun I can see what you are saying, but I think it is important to sometimes sound off when you feel that the arguments are being watered down and compromised.

"I feel sympathy for gender dysphoria" seems to be a party line we have to toe, but on all honesty I am skeptical about it. There is a big trans agenda machine out there which is, for example, trying to convince young lesbians and gay men that they have gender dysphoria rather than just being lesbian or gay in a misogynistic world where being such is not truly socially accepted.

Bmacklin I'm new too it as well. I don't actually know anything about feminism either.I had a live and let live attitude until my teenage daughter became friendly with a boy who claimed he was a woman. My dd became quite aggressive about the whole trans thing and it just got more and more ridiculous. She would rant at me about trans rights and despite the fact I had a live and let live approach I really reached my limit when I had to listen to how nobody at school was sympathetic to this boy's periods. Yep, periods

She totally bought into it all to the point she would cry at the injustice of it all, and it really started to affect our relationship.

What became very obvious was that this boy didn't fit into the boys group. The girls, who previously didn't pay him much attention, suddenly clamoured to be his best friend and be supportive of him when he stated he was a girl. Suddenly he was really popular and was now privvy to the girls private conversations about boys, periods and other female stuff. And they all played along while he complained bitterly about his periods.

This will possibly get deleted but I don't give a toss. I think there was something sinister and perverted about it. I think he got off on having access to teenage girls thoughts and feelings. I think he got off at being able to convince these girls that he had periods and I think he revelled in the attention he got. The boys didn't want to know.

I feel sick now when I think about it. I really wish I had raised it seriously with the school. I feel like although nothing sexually happened to her, she was groomed and well, I can't quite describe it. something emotionally horrible happened.

You're probably right Datun. I just find it so frustrating.

Rogue that sounds similar to your child being exposed to a cult, brainwashing, it is grooming. Did they question how he was having periods without a uterus?

If one of the usual suspects comes along and starts posting, you can guarantee that there will be a lot of deletions within about 20 minutes because they have reported so many things yes! In a minute the whole bloody thread becomes unintelligible. Rage!

Rogue I can totally see what you are saying about your daughter. I remember being friends with an out gay boy at school there was definitely something about him being like an exotic flower that made him interesting and more popular than his actual personality deserved.
These days there is a whole trans rabbit hole anyone can disappear down on the internet -with just a few clicks- in the way there just wasn't when I was at school. It really complicate things that young people can self-diagnose and join communities with so little dedication nowadays- they don't even need to visit a library. They get this whole ideology handed to them on a plate - and like a cult - it can be hard to leave from what I hear.

I don't know why they bother trying to shut down feminist debate. Its not feminism that turns women against mtt, its MTT themselves. When they insist in taking part in women sport, or try to rename us cis more women go hell no. MTT simultaneously saying jeni Murray was wrong to say MTT are not the same as women, while justifying by tell us how their lives are do much harder than women's , made more women go wtf. If these people really want trans ideology to be accepted they need to shut MTT up.

And rogue, I'm genuinely sorry about what's happened with your daughter.

Rogue

That is just awful. Periods? Ffs.

Don't get me wrong, I can reach enraged critical mass in seconds over this issue. Particularly the gaslighting like effing 'periods'. There's the fetish right there. Your intuition was completely right.

Has it resolved itself? God, it would infuriate me.

I think the more people who understand the issues, the quicker they will reach peak trans.

I do believe it's best to remain reasonable, rational and just engage, however painful that is sometimes.

I have lost count of the number of women who have come on these threads saying they were the ones crying bigot six months ago, and now they totally get it.

I'm sure I have mentioned Gendertrender before. I occasionally visit that site for a spot of relief. They have no interest whatsoever in diplomacy.

It's not only good for the blood pressure, it's very enlightning in terms of the research they do. They can spot an MRA or TRA immediately. It's quite shocking how them just saying um no (with a lot more swearing), makes the mask drop and the misogyny come hurtling out full throttle.

If my stress levels start to creep up over the erasure of women, I pop over there for a visit. It reminds me just what a fucked off woman looks like.

Did they question how he was having periods without a uterus?

No, which is surprising considering they were doing gcse biology. When I pointed it out she would yell that I was ignorant and transphobic. It was really worrying to hear her saying all this. I really didn't understand what's happening in schools or how much pressure girls are under to not only accept it, but champion it.

www.transgendertrend.com/cps-schools-project-the-erasure-of-sex-and-the-silencing-of-girls/

I think, or at least hope, that the trans of teenagers is this years fashion and will quickly die down.

Although I thought that the second a MTT was charged with rape or sexual assault the house of cards would collapse, but it seems to be stronger than ever. And I honestly thought that Anna lees, the NUS rep, was a mature student doing a performance art piece. So, I've been very wrong in the past.

I've read that link before. Utterly infuriating.

Things ARE going wrong. Cultish is very good description.

I was reading about the fully developed, 15-year-old boy running on a girls track team. Identifies as a girl. No puberty blockers, no hormones, no surgery. Nothing. This is in America, where he will no doubt win the nationals and get a scholarship on the back of it.

Being feted as brave and courageous and how everyone should respect his humanity.

The Facebook page has a lot of criticism. However, it's very strange that they criticise this demonstration of how a man can't be a woman, without connecting the dots to the fact that it is all, all of it, a belief system.

So you have many people out there who totally accept the 'born in the wrong body' narrative, but still disagree that the actual body is in any way female. They are sort of halfway there.

And there were a surprising number of comments saying things like but he has faced such problems, he has been so unhappy, why can't you just accommodate him? STFU in other words. Men Are More Important.

www.facebook.com/hartfordcourant/posts/10155238934341602

Oh no. Just Googled Anna Lee www.independent.co.uk/student/news/anna-lee-student-at-lancaster-making-history-in-bid-to-become-first-openly-trans-candidate-to-run-a6891231.html?amp speaking about a 'glass ceiling' preventing him from getting a role as women's officer.

Brainwashing. It's positively Orwellian.

I got the below in my newsletter from Critical Sisters. At the launch event we spoke a lot about the information being used in schools.

Plans

School number one has signed-up to the pilot of our gender critical education programme. We will be teaching such dangerous ideas as 'no child's body is wrong' and 'culture is not an excuse for abuse

As was mentioned at our launch event, becoming a school governor is a useful way to keep an eye on what schools are up to and to have a hand in policy. You can apply to become a governor here.