Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

Pizanfan
IAmAmy - somebody who's legally still a child - describes the intimidation and abusive humiliation that she and her peers have experienced since the age of 14. Your responses include the words:

"What you claim happened to you is bad"

Not sure I've seen anything much more offensive on MN than that, TBH.

The problem is that the men doing it do not want it to be a compliment. It is about them, not the recipient. Otherwise when they were ignored or asked to "not say that", they would not escalate to insults.

What happens if there isn't a foreman. Or the woman is alone, or at night or it's a gang of men? Is it OK if they don't call it out then?

Putting the onus on women to change their behaviour is removing the responsibility from men to change their behaviour. It is their behaviour that is wrong, not women's reaction to it. Changing their behaviour could also put them in danger. There is a reason why many women don't call men out on it - fear of escalation. Instinct. Women need to trust their instincts.

Sorry that post was to Datun! In case you weren't able to mind-read!

scallopsrgreat

I'm not saying that women calling it out is inferring that it's woman's fault ! And of course, there will be many situations where that's impossible.

But the stereotypical example of men on a building site, can be addressed.

Of course men are responsible for their own behaviour. But I don't see the problem with naming it and reporting on those occasions when that is possible ?

OK Datun, maybe I've misunderstood where you are coming from but I thought you said that women should call it out every single time.

I don't think they should. And I don't think that expectation should be there. I think the expectation should be shifted on to men to not behave in that manner.

You can't seriously hope that men will somehow stop being violent only to women but carry on murdering each other (at a higher rate than they murder other women). No I expect men to sort their shit out. Stop killing each other as well as killing women. Men can sort this out. They manage to have most of the power and money in the world. They are perfectly capable of changing their behaviours.

I think it's incredibly difficult to tackle the problem of male violence, because it benefits them. Whether you think it is genetic, territorial, power wielding, etc. And I certainly don't think it's easy for women to do much about it. Raising daughters with high self-esteem to enable them to pick 'better' men is a start.

Spreading the word for why specifically catcalling is not a compliment, is another. Calling it street harassment, etc. And trying to stop it by reporting it, (when there is no further danger).

If you raise the idea that it is socially unacceptable, and people say 'why it's just a compliment', the idea that it's actually harassment, spreads. The conversation opens.

I really don't think men in general understand what it is like to be a woman. They can understand it intellectually when you explain it to them, and then they go away and don't give second thought.

It wouldn't occur to them to change their morning commute specifically to avoid the sound of a pneumatic drill (my young intern - and it was her I was thinking of with regards to the suggestion of reporting. I wish I had told her that at the time).

And sorry Datun - honestly I'm not having a go at you. I've liked your posts so far so I just didn't understand that one as it seemed against the grain of what you'd been saying.

Agree with your last post too!

No worries scallopsrgreat, i'm not at my most articulate before a vat of coffee.

For the hard of thinking....

I mentioned the rate at which women are murdered for the reasons others have pointed out. But yes, let's look at male murder rates too, but let's look at the more important aspect of that, which is: Who is the perpetrator? The answer to which is overwhelmingly: Other men. Thus neatly proving the point that men as a class are people to be wary of, because they are far more likely to kill you than women.

Women, as I said previously, are socialised to know this and act accordingly. And, as I also pointed out, if they fail to act accordingly with regard to men and something awful happens, then they are held to be partially to blame for the man's criminality in ways that men simply aren't.

There is also a difference between builders on a site cat calling and random men in the street doing it. The former, you can complain to their boss and change your route to avoid them, the latter you simply can't.

It is also bloody irresponsible to encourage women to call out men for their harassment, however, reporting every single incident of it might be helpful, if time consuming.

Sadly, it appears that the BTP have quietly closed down their specific sexual offences unit and is now being reported. I pity women coming home on crowded tube trains this evening after men who serially sexually assault women in those situations have been told that there is nowhere for women to go now to report such incidents. It was awful to have to wear a raincoat all year round so you didn't have to pay to dry clean some man's sperm out of your office clobber.

And yes Datun, I agree that calling it cat calling actually isn't helpful, it needs to be named properly as Street Harassment and treated accordingly.

And you (and everyone!) might have been looking at my post at 00.54, all but the last sentence of which was a quote from Pizanfan with a spectacularly bold fail, on my part.

No I expect men to sort their shit out.

The human race has been unable to "sort it's shit out" ever. Isn't this like a) partially blaming me for being of the same sex as the Russian pilots and generals and president, responsible for using thermobaric weapons on sheltering civilians and b) expecting that I can change a mans behaviour, and am therefore in some way to blame for it if I don't ?

Someone once mentioned a feminist 101 - I would be interested to read the bit about the limitations or parameters of class analysis because it just seems nuts to me to say that "men can stop all violence if they want" when many millions of men have been killed trying to stop other men getting what they want by using violence.

Xeno

Thus neatly proving the point that men as a class are people to be wary of, because they are far more likely to kill you than women.

The problem with this is, as has been pointed out, if your interest here is in identifying a class of humans who may pose a threat to you, "men" is somewhat broad. If you were to use e.g crime statistics to narrow the focus , helping you to stay safe - you would be called a racist, islamaphobe etc etc.

Also - what is the purpose of identifying the subsection of humans who are more likely to pose a threat ? So you can take protective measures ? Again, wouldn't it be more practical to focus that effort on more specific groups ? Or maybe rank them or something ?

I think it was also growapears post which confused me.

He seemed to be saying that it is partly women's responsibility to stop male violence. Adding that men do try to stop other evil men in the context of war. Which made little sense to me, because historically war has always been about the gains the men want on the first place - territory, women, resources etc. I can't help thinking, that if women ran things, we would still be able to get the things we want, without killing one another. But I don't know enough about it - other than a profound belief that male violence is neither the fault nor the responsibility of women.

what is the purpose of identifying the subsection of humans who are more likely to pose a threat ? So you can take protective measures ? Again, wouldn't it be more practical to focus that effort on more specific groups ? Or maybe rank them or something ?

We have grow. It just happens that those rankings are somewhat skewed by some fairly disputable ideas from the 70s which just won't die.

Small girls are told to fear, in order: Strange men, strange women and that's about it.
What we should be told to fear is: Men we know, Strange men, Strange women, Women we know.

So, to narrow it down, the class of people women should be most wary of is "men they know".

I find it interesting that you and your friend want to make this a race thing though. Is that purely to get white men off the hook? Or do you have some other agenda here?

Datun, that's exactly what he said. But then, he's also trying to advocate some kind of weird racial profiling, so...

DO the stats show a racial bias? I thought that wasn't the case.

On sex offences, black men made up 32 per cent of male suspects proceeded against, and white men 49 per cent.

From The Telegraph.

Which made little sense to me, because historically war has always been about the gains the men want on the first place

You are lumping the ones who want to make the gains and those who died trying to prevent them as the same on account of their biology. Men do not only try to stop "evil" in the name of war, unless you think that "men" have no interest in finding and locking up other men they consider evil ? Who actually takes the risk when it comes to ensuring these "evil" men are found and are locked away at night ? Who sits chained to them in the dock ? Women ?

I think that black men are statistically more likely to be found guilty of committing rape than white men, whether they indeed commit it at a higher rate is perhaps not possible to say. Black men are (I'm sure) statistically more likely to commit violent crime than white men, but taking a course of action where you treated black men more warily than white man would be racist.

And if you indeed believe, as you claim, that women should be taught to be wary of "men they know", and you also believe that women are quite likely to be assaulted, then what on earth is wrong with simply advising women not to form relationships with men ? I mean, if that is what you believe, why not just say it ?

"I mean, if that is what you believe, why not just say it ?"

Mmm hmm. Because lesbian separatists never get mocked.

I can't help thinking, that if women ran things, we would still be able to get the things we want, without killing one another.

This is also very interesting, why do you think that ? Are women's brains somehow wired differently so that they are more disposed to solving conflict peacefully ? I would have thought that was a controversial view. In order to have any idea about this we would need to imagine that women were the ones most effectively able to use violence or that they could resist male violence without any problem given that men would still try and use it. If females were the stronger of the two sexes, I had always thought our society would largely be switched around.

More seriously: it's not possible to function in the world without relationships with men: brothers, fathers, colleagues and classmates, at the very least.

Yonic

Are you suggesting that (some) feminists are truly too frightened of the mockery they would get (even on an anonymous internet forum) to state what seems the obvious conclusions of their reasoning ?

Or is it that "avoid men wherever possible, and certainly avoid having a relationship with one" is not the corollary of "women are very likely to be sexually assaulted, and it's most likely to be someone they are in a relationship with" ?